How do you talk relatives out of ritual circumcision of a child?

[UrbanDad]

A (non=-ewish) female friend of mine is married to a quite nice jewish DH. They have just had a baby boy and DH's parents and aunts/uncles are putting pressure on him to have their DS circumcised. DH is equivocal but my friend is dead set against it. I think it's barbaric - how would you react to a member of your family putting pressure on you to mutilate your child's genitalia? No apologies - it's child abuse pure and simple and should be criminalised. Religion is no excuse for this mediaeval, unenlightened superstitious crap.

Has anyone got any experience of talking moronic religious extremist relatives out of this stupidity? (Apologists for/proponents of/justificants of ritual circumcision please don't even bother responding to this post.)

Message withdrawn

Again, I think emotions are obviously running high with the OP. With just cause.

I wish someone would argue convincingly for circumcision. It might help me feel less wretched whenever I see mention of it.

I think the OP was shocking and rude and probably unnecessary - there've bene plenty of debates on this subject without such abject lack of politeness/ extreme language.

There IS no convincing arguement. History, religious sensiblities, external markers - nothing justifies circumcision of a child who has no say in the matter.

OK I post as a non jewish woman married to a south african jewish man, we have a dd and then 3 years later a ds. I was terrified about having to deal with the issue of a briss. We had long heart felt discussions about this - ds looking like dh, the hygiene/health issue (largely dismissed by dh's jewish american doctor relatives), the cultural/religious thing. I stood back and told dh I would stand by his decision (as I knew he would make the right one) as I didn't want to cause problems, and sure enough ds is now 4 and fully intact.

It is a very emotive and difficult issue, and where religious issues are concened it is hard to put your point across withou becoming offensive. A tough situation to be in.

Defininately butt out. It's none of your business at all, I'm afraid.

I don't find male circumcision barbaric at all. I've had a couple of circumsized boyfriends over the years, and I think it's nice, personally, especially from a hygiene point of view.

You just have to accept that different cultures do things their own way. Some people don't get the aardvark's snout

I'm with Lulumama. What a nasty and inflamatory post (regardless of what you think of the issue). I'm in a mixed faith marriage and wouldn't want to be friends with someone who secretly thinks this way about DH's faith. To my mind, it's also clear that, in a mixed faith relationship, these are the kinds of issues which need to be dealt with before you get married. It's too late to start debating this once the child is here....

CoV well done for coming to an amicable agreement. That sounds really positive.

Surely the parents must have discussed how they both felt about circumcision before?

I don't think the language I used was intemperate when it was directed at people who are outside a family wanting to interfere and put pressure on parents to cause needless pain to a small child, especially when their "tribal" rituals don't seem to matter one jot the rest of the time.

But it wasn't directed at the DH's family, it was directed at every Jewish person who has chosen to circumcise as per their religion.

P.S. I wanted to avoid having the "is circumcision OK?" debate. My view is that it is definitely not (no apologies for religious sensibilities). What I was looking for was people's experience in talking relatives out of putting pressure on an unwilling parent to mutilate their child.

I just marvel that we have the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003 and nothing corresponding for males, but it should in my view be a criminal offence.

Removing part of a child's anatomy without their consent under the name of religion is wrong.
Just because some Jewish people choose to do this to their babies does not make it right in any way shape of form.

or form

Ok maybe I am naive (quite possibly as dh and I were engaged at 18 although not married until 27) but we really didn't think about the religious, child rerin aspects until we were expecting. Is that so unusual?

you addressed your comments to every single jewish person, myself included, and i have explained why it is offensive and unecessary.

you knew exactly what response you would get with your OP hence telling 'apologists' not to post

you don;t wish to engage, but to offend as a far less inflammatory OP would have been

'I am concerned my friends are going to circumcise their son, I am very much against this rite and would like some ideas of how to disucss this with them, without offending their religious sensibilities but still getting across my point'

rather than labelling all jews religious extremist moronic child abusers

I don't see that there is any talking out to do. It has to be done by doctors doesn't it? Some relative can't do it in the front room. It's really for your friend and her husband and if she is opposed and he is equivocal, I'd put my money on her.

if you were simply looking for some advice of how to talk them out of it, you would not have used the language you have used.

female and male circumcision are from two totally different standpoints, as i posted earlier

Good on you, Lulu!

Sorry, Urban, but to equate male circumcision to barbaric mutilation is just ridiculous. And if you're not having a side pop at the jews, then I don't know who is.

As I said, butt out. There's nothing wrong with a circumsized penis. I prefer them, as a matter of fact.

Good for you Desi. I'm so glad that you prefer a penis without a foreskin.

However, they get like that because an 8 day old baby has his foreskin removed, not always by a doctor, and not always under anaesthetic, and certainly not with his consent.

Is that still OK with you now?

I get where you are coming from.... If he was devout and followed every aspect of the religion, then it would make more sense. My sil has children with her muslim boyf.

I have no problems at all with people who have a religion, but what I have a problem with are people who choose "bits" from a religion, and only follow which ever parts are easy.... In my sil's case they had their baby boy circumcised

I do not understand why...... If he was a devout muslim, surely he wouldn't have dc out of wedlock with a non musilm woman in he first place?

It makes me so that she didnt stand up to him

Oh - and there are men out there who prefer THEIR females circumcised. Somehow that doesn't seem quite so right, does it?

There is a difference in sexual feeling (for want of a better word) between circumcised and uncircumcised men though isn't there?

At least the conversations between the boys at my school certainly seemed to indicate that!

FWIW my acquaintance who is married to a Jewish man had this issue - his argument was that it was more hygenic. Not sure what happened in the end though.

I think that there isn't an argument past, it's part of the religion, a very important part, which has gone on for, well, ages.

Your friend and her DH need to think it through together. I don't think outside views will help. She will not be able to present a logical argument why not which will work - because it's not to do with logic it's to do with religion.