How do you talk relatives out of ritual circumcision of a child?

[UrbanDad]

A (non=-ewish) female friend of mine is married to a quite nice jewish DH. They have just had a baby boy and DH's parents and aunts/uncles are putting pressure on him to have their DS circumcised. DH is equivocal but my friend is dead set against it. I think it's barbaric - how would you react to a member of your family putting pressure on you to mutilate your child's genitalia? No apologies - it's child abuse pure and simple and should be criminalised. Religion is no excuse for this mediaeval, unenlightened superstitious crap.

Has anyone got any experience of talking moronic religious extremist relatives out of this stupidity? (Apologists for/proponents of/justificants of ritual circumcision please don't even bother responding to this post.)

I feel my argument still applies whether circumcision is occasionally necessary (and perhaps it is) or not - most children don't need it or necessarily benefit from it.

Most children do benefit from immunisation.

And quite apart from all that - I'm not arguing against it particularly for medical reasons but from a cultural perspective - ie that it is done for cultural or religious reasons and that has no practical justification whatsoever imo (can someone give me one maybe - plenty of medical back up offered, but none explaining that)

Sure, everyone can (and probably does) have more than one lot of cultural heritage. Nothing I said or think negates that.

I think anyone on this thread who was Jewish has long since run off, understandably. But as you said, you think it has no justification whatsoever, so what is the point in anyone attempting to explain it to you? I wouldn't bother personally.

If you actually want to understand something and have your understanding increased and your preconceptions challenged, why not do some research on the cultural significance of circumcision in the Jewish or Islam faiths, rather than getting all judgy on here?

Just a thought.

Anna said: "It's not just Jewish boys who are circumcised. My DP is Jewish and so are my DSSs and they are all circumcised, but so is my (100% British) father and plenty of Muslims I know. And Americans."

What was the relevance of your circumcised father being 100% British. Did you mean to say he is not Jewish because that would have made sense.

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Are you angry? You sound really pissed off with me. Sorry if I've pissed you off.

I don't think I'm 'getting all judgey', I'm asking a question because I'd like someone to explain to me why doing something like that in the name of religion is so important as to negate the actual pain it causes.

I'd really like to know because I lack the understanding you think I ought to display.

The relevance is that many people from many cultures (not just Jews) can be circumcised... eg...

That was to Georgi

'As for the cultural thing - well, for most people it is tied up with theological reasoning.'

• which I'd like to understand.

'And I think it's pretty clear that you not only don't share their religious beliefs, but are not prepared to tolerate a different view on this point...'

• I'm not sure how this is clear? I have asked people to explain, I have left it open for explanation and discussion and it's a genuine enough question - i'm not trying to be tricksy!

' How could anyone satisfy you if you don't agree about the religion;'

-see above, where did I say that?

'and you don't accept that this is an issue where one can respect a different view? Where does one start? '

• Again, where did I say any of that??? How are you making these presumptions?

If anything i am admitting my own ignorance - that makes me ignorant, of course, but not necessarily anti being educated otherwise.

That's why I ASKED!

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I'm not specifically angry at you. I'm angry at the suggestion that 13.3 million Jews and 1.6 billion Muslims are all child abusers.

Could someone explain what is the significance of circumcision in the Jewish/Islamic faiths?
I think it might add something to this debate.

Bloss, no way man, it's cool

You haven't made me feel bad, I thought you were very reasoned and pleasant too.

Geordimama - 'child abuser' connotates many awful, shocking and nasty images and I didn't want to imply (as OP perhaps did) that anyone is a 'child abuser' although I see that the phrase can be used gramatically to describe someone perpetuating an act of abuse...a bit different in its inferences though.

I believe that many people - parents, Jewish, Muslim, otherwise - are kind, loving, wonderful people, who wish their children no harm whatsoever.

But I do take issue with one particular act carried out ritually against children, and i hate the act rather than the people committing it as I don't believe they think it is harmful or cruel or wrong.

Asi said earlier I think often it is simply misguided rather than abusive - in that no harm is meant or intended.

I do believe the act abuses the child it is done to though. Can you see where I am coming from? That's why I want further to understand the motives.

Bubbaluv - that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

Asi said earlier I think often it is simply misguided rather than abusive - in that no harm is meant or intended

Sorry that should say 'malicious' or similar in place of 'abusive'

In fact in almost every case, not malicious

Not intentionally abusive

Much as someone who pierces their baby's ears isn't doing it because they hate their child. iyswim...

Well, good old Wiki has a lot of the issues covered here including the debate we have been having.

I haven't read the whole thing myself yet.

Thanks - i might have a read once tea is made.

Bloody Hell, Urban Dad, I don't have a single drop of Jewish blood in my heritage and I find your OP shocking.

What gives you the right to tell other people what they should or should not do with their children.

Go to a doctor. Get some valium, man. And chill out...

However, some people earlier down said that ultimately this is a decision to be taken by the mother and the father, and that it is the father's place to stand up to his family and inform them of their joint decision. I agree with this. And as for technique, I think you have demonstrated here that you are not qualified to advise on this matter.

Just my thoughts.........Why is it now illegal for people to snip the tails of their newborn jack russell puppies in this country but legal to allow an unqualified person to snip the foreskin off your newborn son? Doesn't make sense really does it?

Doesn't seem to explain much. Basically just says that the Judaism/Islam require it. Why is what I need to know.
Historically there have been some pretty barbaric practises carried out in the name of religion and most of these have been abolished (at least in the western world). Other arbitrary religious laws (dietry for e.g) have continued becuase there is no down-side to them.
I'm just not sure where in the spectrum this sits, and without an understanding of the purpose of circumcision within a religion I can't get any further.

I know one friend of mine had her boys circumsised because she prefered the way it looks - and she has undertaken a vast (and I mean vast) personal survey to reach this concusion. I persoanlly think that is just sick. Kind of like my DH insisting our (hypothetical) daughter got a boob job at 16 because he likes big tits! Eurgh!

am Jewish by birth and would never, ever inflict this on my son. debate didn't arise in our case as family assumed that as DH isn't Jewish it just wasn't going to happen (and it didn't). However I've often thought a compromise would be to say yes, I'll have him circumcised but undera anaesthesia in a medical setting (as I know loads of little boys who end up having it done at age 5plus anyhow for medical reasons). But also agree if either parent is against this sort of religious practice the other parent should respect it as it's such a huge thing to inflict on a child.