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How do you talk relatives out of ritual circumcision of a child?

329 replies

UrbanDad · 25/01/2009 14:28

A (non=-ewish) female friend of mine is married to a quite nice jewish DH. They have just had a baby boy and DH's parents and aunts/uncles are putting pressure on him to have their DS circumcised. DH is equivocal but my friend is dead set against it. I think it's barbaric - how would you react to a member of your family putting pressure on you to mutilate your child's genitalia? No apologies - it's child abuse pure and simple and should be criminalised. Religion is no excuse for this mediaeval, unenlightened superstitious crap.

Has anyone got any experience of talking moronic religious extremist relatives out of this stupidity? (Apologists for/proponents of/justificants of ritual circumcision please don't even bother responding to this post.)

OP posts:
Monkeytrousers · 26/01/2009 17:35

I don't know Athene, you might not agree with the way he put it - we are all capable do speaking out of turn if something really pisses us off - but I think everyone of us has the right to discuss the rights and wrongs of putting children through unnecessary surgery for religous or cultural reasons. It's what the whole debate with FGM is about!

I know male circumcision isn't mutilation in the way female GM is (though is somehow ironic to me how the 'vanilla' male version of verson of this is supposed to improve sex, while the whole point of female 'circumcision' is to prevent her from ever deriving pleasure from intercourse) but it is still a very radical way to stamp a religion on someone a week after they are born, isn't it?

ProfRichardDawkins · 26/01/2009 17:45

Anna Yes, but can't you be British and Jewish? If yes, 'not just Jews are circumcised but Brits too' makes no sense whatsoever. Did you mean Christian? Or did you mean to say he is not Jewish? Because being British does not indicate what religion someone might be.

ProfRichardDawkins · 26/01/2009 17:46

Anna Yes, but can't you be British and Jewish? If yes, 'not just Jews are circumcised but Brits too' makes no sense whatsoever. Did you mean Christian? Or did you mean to say he is not Jewish? Because being British does not indicate what religion someone might be.

BonsoirAnna · 26/01/2009 17:54

FGS

jabberwocky · 26/01/2009 18:33

bubbaluv, the religious reason given is that it is the ultimate sacrifice to God.

UrbanDad · 26/01/2009 19:51

Just so you know why I posted and why I am "interfering" - my friend asked me for advice and her family situation means she no support on her side except for her friends. She felt like she was being bullied by her DH's family and we discussed how she could convince them it's not going to happen. The feelings about it being "barbaric" etc. were her some of her less choice words on the matter (and I concur). She was even scared about leaving her son on his own in the care of her DH or DH's parents in case they get it done while she's out (maybe a bit paranoid there, but it's a newborn and her first kid).

OP posts:
ilovemydogandMrObama · 26/01/2009 20:17

She is scared to leave her DS alone with her DH wtf?

Did she not realize she was marrying a Jewish man? Did they not discuss these issues before getting married/having children?

memoo · 26/01/2009 20:17

urban dad, by saying things like..

"it's child abuse pure and simple"

you offend many parents like myself who have had their son circumsised because of medical reasons.

Given this, do you not think it would have been better to be slightly more sensitive in your OP

lingle · 26/01/2009 20:46

Hi UrbanDad.

Yes, I was in your friend's position (so really this should be post number 2 not 259 on this thread).

When I was pregnant with DS1, DH (Jewish, from family of Holocaust survivors, non-observant) and I were driving home one dark night. He said: "I've been thinking more about circumcision and I'm coming round to thinking that we should do it".

So, firstly, I thanked my lucky stars that it was dark so he couldn't see the expression on my face. Then I went quiet. Then I decided that if he mentioned it again I would research the law on the issue (ie who has to consent - can you research this for your friend by the way?).

It was scary - it was as if he had suddenly turned into someone else. I felt very protective towards the unborn child.

Luckily, it dawned on him after a few days that the child was not Jewish and this brought him round to my point of view, which he realised was all the stronger for being expressed through silence. Having accepted that the child was not being invited into the religion, this made it easier for him to tell his family that it wasn't going to happen.

His grandma later asked whether DS1 was circumcised. he said "no". Grandma said "you should have done it - it's dirty not to". To my astonishment, mild-mannered DH said: "It's none of your business grandma".

He told me later that Grandma has a great respect for people who know their own business and butt out of that of others. He had clearly been preparing an appropriate line for when the inevitable question was asked.

So in summary:

  1. the husband is probably going through a bit of a phase like DH did caused by awareness of impending fatherhood - she should be kind about it - the family are probably going through something similar. It may be a delayed reaction to him marrying out. It's hard for them. They will probably settle as our family did once the deed is not - or NOT done I should say.
  2. As a back-up plan, your friend should establish for certain that she has the legal right to refuse to circumcise. If she is breastfeeding she won't be leaving the boy with them in infancy anyway will she? But suspicions of this nature are pretty extreme aren't they, pregnant or not?
  3. The fact that the child will not be Jewish is probably the best argument.
  4. "It's our business" is probably the other best argument.

Anyway, all DH's relatives love our boys, accept them as they are and I certainly would not hesitate to leave them with their relatives. They have held back from telling DS1 (6) the sadder parts of the family history. Do you think your friend might need to learn a bit more about her DH's culture? Respect cuts both ways after all. Their distress should be treated with understanding and compassion. The child is lucky to have two religious heritages and Judaism has a lot going for it. For a start, they have a much better attitude towards presents! (one each day during Hannukah rather than 10 at once as we do at christmas). She must make it clear that she is not turning the child completely away from that part of his heritage. DS1 has "My First Passover" books, etc from the relatives. She should learn more about their point of view and the reason for their distress and make it up to them in a way that doesn't involve chopping foreskins off.

DrCronin · 26/01/2009 21:27

Actually, thats not true Richard (hello, btw). As you well know someone who identified themselves as 'British' in the first instance is more than likely to be of anglo saxon descent and also christened CoE, even if they are lax christians.

ProfRichardDawkins · 26/01/2009 21:35

DrC Hello. I would describe myself as British but I am not of Anglo Saxon origin nor was I christened C of E.

thirtysomething · 26/01/2009 21:37

don't get that Drcronin - i'm a British Jew, and proud of both these heritages. Why does saying I'm British first make me more likely to be Christened C of E exactly? When I was a child I was taunted at school by a very nasty little girl who said I couldn't be British if I was Jewish. have never forgotten it.

ProfRichardDawkins · 26/01/2009 21:40

thirtysomething. Thank goodness. Someone who sees what I am getting at. If you look a bit down the thread BonsoirAnna was insisting that I was being fussy.

thirtysomething · 26/01/2009 21:48

I see what you mean Prof Richard. I do find that implication offensive. There are lots of ways of being British, lots of ways of being Jewish/Muslim/Christian, and everybody's individual mix of nationality, religion, culture, traditions etc informs their choices about stuff such as the issue being debated here. Am gonna find another thread now as I can see I'm going to get offended by the implication I'm not 100% British if I'm Jewish.

lisalisa · 26/01/2009 22:39

Onager - "its more interesting for the crowd if no aneasthetic is used"

WTF?????

Are you for real?

Someone tell me this poster is a troll? Please?

Monkeytrousers · 26/01/2009 23:04

She is taking the piss, Lisa. Please tell me you dont actually think MN is full of respectable maniacs?

LynetteScavo · 26/01/2009 23:10
Grin
jasper · 26/01/2009 23:27

OP is NOT talking about medical reasons.

dooit, good point

Kevlarhead · 27/01/2009 00:31

AFAIK, circumcision is useful if you're a medieval middle eastern nomad with no/limited access to washing facilities interested in removing a body part it's possible to get sand stuck underneath with all the attendant scratching/bleeding/infecting/abcessing that situation may bring.

Think of it as a sexual fitness enhancer, or a device to ensure people's lineage is not interrupted by their knobs being too black and runny to function...

I don't think it's particularly applicable in the UK though, given it's a conspicuously non-desertlike land enveloped in perpetual drizzle.

I'd call it an unecessary medical procedure, that carries more risk than not doing it.

kitkatqueen · 27/01/2009 00:56

Would this help your friend?

feel a bit sick... expression on babies face.

www.circumcisionquotes.com/description.html

kitkatqueen · 27/01/2009 01:01

Also...

www.circumcisionquotes.com/video.html

Good Luck to your friend.

zazen · 27/01/2009 01:09

Why not get the child initiated into the mother's church - after all they had their wedding blessing there.

Then the answer is that we are bringing him up in her faith, as the father hasn't been practicing for 20 years, and one faith is better than none (especially when circumcision is involved, no?).

They of course could involve the little boy with the lapsed religion of his dad, but in a way to build compassion, not faith (with it's attendant covenants).

If this was a girl we would all know where we stood: for me I see no difference, girl or boy - and having a piece of you lopped off for God/s is just crazy IMO - like puppies' tails and ears for Crufts.

BlueSapphire77 · 27/01/2009 07:52

Having read the first and last pages of this thread, i would like to stand and be flamed lol

My DS1 has been circumcised. He was a baby when it was done and it was done under anaesthetic.
His father also had the procedure done. Penile cancer runs in his family you see.....

Apparently circumcision removes this risk? I have just given birth to DS2 and do not want to have it done, what does that make me? A bad mum? DS1 and DS2 have different fathers btw.

Bring it on i'm ready

Watoose · 27/01/2009 08:09

God, Kitkat, I kind of wish I hadn't seen that - though I do think people who think it's a good idea ought to look at it.

It's actually much worse than I thought.

candyfluff · 27/01/2009 09:57

i think it should only be done for medical reasons.end of