How do you talk relatives out of ritual circumcision of a child?

[UrbanDad]

A (non=-ewish) female friend of mine is married to a quite nice jewish DH. They have just had a baby boy and DH's parents and aunts/uncles are putting pressure on him to have their DS circumcised. DH is equivocal but my friend is dead set against it. I think it's barbaric - how would you react to a member of your family putting pressure on you to mutilate your child's genitalia? No apologies - it's child abuse pure and simple and should be criminalised. Religion is no excuse for this mediaeval, unenlightened superstitious crap.

Has anyone got any experience of talking moronic religious extremist relatives out of this stupidity? (Apologists for/proponents of/justificants of ritual circumcision please don't even bother responding to this post.)

[mamamila]

just checking back on this thread and sending a high five to needsomesunshine who i think has been very harshly replied to

my sentiment exactly that for many cultures it's just totally the norm to be circumcised and no big deal at all, not being circ would be far more of an issue

i joined this thread as the topic is on the table in our house, me and dp are wondering how we arrange circ if baby is boy as we're aware uk nhs do not offer choice of circ so we're a bit concerned at idea of it being done in a mosque, rather than hospital

[DaDaDa]

As males are born with a foreskin, is it not reasonable to presume that as long as it is functioning properly it should remain intact?

I can understand the cultural/religious arguments (although I don't agree with them) but some of the views on here of the 'it looks better/it feels better for me' type are preposterous. Reverse the genders and consider if they're reasonable.

As for cleanliness, foreskins retract.

[mamamila]

but how about the argument that it's always been done and has to be done for religious/cultural reasons and it's not a big deal. no-one is forcing anyone to agree to circ their own child but i can't see the point in people being so aggressive towards those who do circ their sons
any reasonable adult can understand that some cultures do- end of!

[mamamila]

and lastly- if you cherish your future sons foreskins so much it's obviously something you need to discuss with partner before pregnancy!!

[Bubbaluv]

Mamamila, but some terrible things are done becuase they are long-established cultural norms.
Surely these ideas need to be examined and found to still be relevant for them not to be attacked as unjustifiable? Religious requirements are unchanged so there is no real way to argue against that, but cultural norms? Do these really not need to be challenged? Obvioulsy not saying that aggressive bigotry is the way to go about it, but thechange in attitudes in Aus are a good example of how a cultural norm can be examined and found wanting.

[mamamila]

well i obviously don't class circumcision of babies as a terrible thing so..not sure really about challenging cultural norms. i'm more inclined to respect that other peoples/cultures do things their way and it's my choice to get involved or not
my dp won't use toilet paper (disgusted that we do!) or let dd (18m)eat with her left hand and lots of small things, we've decided not to have a dog here as it would have to sleep outside..
but for instance on issues like smacking children dp agrees with me it's quite wrong, however he's grown up in a culture where any passing adult would be able to discipline a child they saw doing wrong and even small toddlers are never far from a light tap from a branch

[Bubbaluv]

I'm not saying it's terrible, just that (as you have expereinced re hitting) cultural norms are not above examination. Surely cutting off a part of a baby's body warrants at least some thought beyond just "that's how it's done round here"?
Surely it begs the question "But why?"

[PadDad]

I'm glad I've got a foreskin.

[Watusi]

So am I, PadDad, that's really nice for you

[jellybeans]

I wonder if eventually circ'd boys will sue their parents for harm? I read something on it once.

[AtheneNoctua]

Do you suppose that means that non circ boys can sue us for neglect?

Good grief where would it end? My DD is probably going to sue me for making her take ballet.

[AllFallDown]

"btw lisalisa, rabbis make alot of money from circumcisions of non jewish boys"

Do they then sacrifice them and drink their blood, too?

Glad to see so many people who haven't been circumcised are willing to brand, for example, my parents as child abusers.

[Bubbaluv]

What do you mean AllFallDown?
I don't think people (circ'd or not) think that the previous generation need to be judged on this matter. It was considered the best thing in those days.

[jellybeans]

Taking ballet is not like having parts of your genitals cut off.

[Bubbaluv]

Athene, she may sue you for not getting her Madarin lessons?

[AtheneNoctua]

Oh shit, how old are you supposed to be when you take Mandarin? And is that before or after Latin?

My point was how absurd it would be if grown children could sue their parents have made what the grown children later deem to be the wrong parental decisions. I mean, we'dd all be in jail wouldn't we... unless of course there are some perfect parents out there, which I doubt.

[UrbanDad]

None of the bluff, bluster and self-righteous indignation of the religious posters who take offence even begins to address the fact that with ritual circumcision there is not even an intention to do it for the benefit of the child (otherwise you would allow the child to decide for himself when he becomes an adult).

Anyway, on what kind of planet does one draw a parallel between decisions parents have to take (such as what physical or educational activity is best for their children) and deciding on no rational ground to chop off a functioning piece of their body and invite the family around to watch and applaud (ugh).

If I decided to chop off the hood of my DD's clitoris, I would be committing a criminal offence and rightly deserve to be put in jail - why should it be different if I did it to a small boy?

Come on - even if you believe in a God, you must believe he gave you the power of rational thought to progress, take what we need from the past and leave the rest behind.

[lingle]

Urban Dad, I am hoping you have not missed my post of 26th Jan in the scrum. As it gives one answer to the question you actually asked.

[lisalisa]

I don't think you will get many responses to your last post UrbanDad other than similar ones to lulumama and I bemoaning the lack of reasoned and respectful debate on MN. As a newcomer I doubt you have read or participated in many but you must be aware of the need for one if you want your posts answered. Oh, and the need to get rid of your appalling language and insinuendos too.

[AtheneNoctua]

I wonder if we can nominate MNposters to bugger off to that moldies site. I'd like to nominate Urban Dad not for the content but for infalamatory delivery.

Some people think you are neglecting your son's best interests if you don't have him circumcised as an infant, when it is not a traumatic experience. The difference between you, UbranDad, and the posters on the other side of the debate is that you are unwilling to respect their point of view.

I have no religeous bond with either Lisalisa or Lulu, but I can respect them and have many in depth conversation with them about nannies and caesareans.

As Lisa points out, this level respect and courtesy is vital to your message on MN. Please try to learn the error of your ways which everyone else can see running rampid through this thread.

Take a deep breath, step back, and when you come back try to debate rather than criticise.

[Judy1234]

It is a breach of the child's human rights. As a parent therefore you have a duty to prevent it happenning even if you have to hang on to teh child and not physically let it go. They cannot circumcise it without your consent so therefore don't be weak, don't give in to cultural pressure. Send all relevant family members booklets about the barbarity of the practice.

This is an emotive subject but it goes to the root of parenting. A child's body should not be modified whether they are male or female. In the US most baby boys are circumcised. In the UK most are not. We are way ahead of the US on this.

It will affect their sex life and how they feel when having sex for the rest of their lives and any parent that allows it to take place because of some edict of usualyl male based religion should take themselves off for therapy/deprogramming.

[thirtysomething]

I take exception to the enormous value judgement you put on those who have mentioned religious beliefs in their posts, Urbandad, by your comment about them being "self-righteous"!!! If you don't mind me saying so it makes you sound quite self-righteous yourself - the whole point of these debates on MN is that you don't have to agree with other people but you should totally respect their right to hold their own religious/moral/political views - do unto others and all that!

[Judy1234]

We do not however have to lie by and allow barbaric mutiliation to children's genitals. The good samaritan doesn't walk on by. The morally right position is to intervene whenever gross abuse is done to children. Now I acecpt that in the UK male circumcision is lawful and female which is worse and is very commonly done to girls around here anyway even if they are shipped back first to Somalia and Egypt is illegal but even so I regard mutilation of a boy's genitalia as a breach of his human rights whetyehr done in the name of hygiene or God. it's almost an isult to God given God made him as he was adn then man chooses to alter him and arguably interfer with his sexual functioning for life. Plenty of men who are circumcised wish their parents had not done it later.

[CrushWithEyeliner]

Genital mutilation in children is appalling - feel nauseous reading the justifications and even benefits on this thread. All in the name of religion - funny how this aspect of the "tradition" (inflicting suffering on an infant) is so fiercely held on to while others are so not - genuine bafflement there.

[jellybeans]

There is no reason to cut babies of either sex. Why are boys not protected? WHY is it not illegal? I believe it will become so. Religion is no excuse nor is tradition. The worst 'reason' I have heard is 'we wanted him to look like dad', bizarre.