Why would you watch porn?

[AmIHumanYet]

How can anybody ENJOY seeing a woman being treated as a sex object? I watched some as research (seriously!) a few months ago, the general themes were men disrespecting women. it was focused on the mans pleasure and orgasm, why do some of you think that that's okay? There's NOTHING equal about this industry

Young men are getting weird and wrong ideas about women and how they should be treated from watching porn. Women are shown as sex OBJECTS, not human beings, they're shown as always being up for it, that basically using her as a wank-tool is enough to make her orgasm, that being selfish and focused on your own pleasure and orgasm is acceptable

I really want to hear some male opinions on this, it has been really upsetting me for a long time now and I feel powerless.

I only have to see the words 'patriarchal society' and I switch off. I found this thread informative and interesting until I read that.

Roussette
It is obvious that we do live in a patriarchal society, I am reminded of that every day and so are many women. If you honestly believe that we don't live in a patriarchal society then maybe you should open your eyes!
Do you believe that women and men are seen as equal in society or do you just think that women are in their rightful place right now?

Toadinthehole

Very interesting. Your point about the Kingsley's having the wealth to gain privacy might play into your point about female sexuality starting to vanish in 'polite (rich :D )' society. The middle of the 18th century is roughly when beginning of the rise of the middle classes can be traced.

From what I have read it seems that the middle class culture was (and in many cases still is) abstemious and somewhat puritan in comparison to the aristocracy or the working class - indeed, back in my sociology A level (too many moons ago) our course material characterised it as a deliberate counterpoint. This might explain why feminists have such a difficulty with porn - there has been a lot of soul-searching within feminist discourse lately after claims that it focuses almost exclusively on the desires and wishes of white middle-class women.

Perhaps the vanishing of female sexuality is not a matter of the Victorian or Edwardian eras, but the shifting values of a distinct class, focused on Godliness, Homelife and 'Family Values'. Motherhood was considered the most valued aspect of a woman's life - everything else was ungodly frippery. Middle class values came to dominate the aspiring working class and the 'virtuous' aristocracy, thus spreading the anti-female sexuality messages up and down the hierachy.

All this is pretty shallow analysis, mind you, but isn't it fun to roll this around in the skull and see what connects and comes together? Kudos to AmI for starting the thread, whereever it might now have taken us.

Roussette I know what you mean, I hate the term as well. However if we don't use their language feminists just refuse to engage and if we can't engage, we can't change hearts or minds. Personally, I switch 'patriarchy' for 'The Old Ways', preferably said in dramatic and disapproving tones.

"Times were dark when we followed The Old Ways".
"The Old Ways still cast a shadow on the world".
"If we slip in our vigilance, we will fall back into The Old Ways".

NeoFaust, I will ask you aswell,
It is obvious that we do live in a patriarchal society, I am reminded of that every day and so are many women. If you honestly believe that we don't live in a patriarchal society then maybe you should open your eyes!
Do you believe that women and men are seen as equal in society or do you just think that women are in their rightful place right now? confused

There can be no dispute that society still has quite a way to go to eliminate sexism. Women's contributions in the 'traditionally feminine' areas - raising children and caring for the vulnerable - are still hugely undervalued, as can be seen reflected in wages and attitudes towards those areas. Women are still struggling to move into 'traditional masculine' areas, likely as a result of both internalised and external prejudice. Both of these and many other examples of anti-female prejudice intensely anger me - the human race cannot afford to waste the potential of any of it's members, while injustice leads to legitimate resentment and deplorable conflict. I regard the continued dominion of The Old Ways as a stain on our society.

Linking your present question to the overall topic, I strongly believe Female sexuality is one area where The Old Ways still have a huge degree of control. The idea that women cannot or worse should not be permitted free sexual agency is anathema to me. The belief that women lose value due to sexual activity is abhorrent - the virgin/whore complex fills me with rage, whether it's generated by a feminist or religious bigot. Whether someone thinks that a woman who is promiscuous or exhibitionist is a betrayer of their gender or a betrayer of god is irrelevant - the individual espousing it is morally vile. Just as vile are those who think women have no control over their own desires or are somehow responsible for the desires of others.

In conclusion, yes, there is still gendered injustice against women in our society and I think that feminist* attitudes to porn are an excellent example.

*As Technotropic reminded me upthread, the egalitarian strand of feminism tends not to be so proscriptive - but that hardly undermines the point that anti-sexuality (or certainly anti-MALE sexuality) dominates feminist discourse.

Argh! Dominates MAINSTREAM feminist discourse.

I can't put it better than Neo. It's the term that gets my goat and makes normal women like me switch off. There are very many women out there who understand the feminist point but can't cope with those out there who come out beating their --tits- chest and spouting on about the patriarchal society whilst not listening to reasoned and interesting discussion on a subject such as this. Neo's first para on his last post sums it up for me.

NeoFaust, I am a sex-positive woman, I have had lots of sexual partners and see nothing wrong with that. What I do see something wrong with is the expectation boys and men had of me and my all of my peers to perform degrading and physically painful acts, to see it as my duty to provide pleasure with no regards to me own, to be a sex object, to be treated selfishly and to be seen as less important than a man These expectations are the norm in my age group and as I mentioned earlier in the thread, with children

Of course the patriarchy exists, I am reminded of it when I walk down a street, when I switch my TV on, when I speak to my younger siblings or the girls I volunteer with and hear what is happening to them and their peers... when huge numbers of women are raped and/or suffer domestic abuse and are blamed, when I shop for clothes or toys for my daughter...

*my own

NeoFaust, I think you will find that you're completely wrong, feminists are generally against slut-shaming and the attitudes towards females and sex that you mention. I have absolutely no idea where you could be getting these ideas from!

AmI I was about to simply dismantle your assumptions again (the idea of 'degrading' sex acts to my mind betrays an ugly attitude towards alternative sexual practices) but instead I'm going to ask for some clarification.

What forms do these 'expectations' take? I assumed up page that you were simply referring to men asking, for instance, 'can we try anal'? but I feel I should make sure we are thinking on the same lines. If you're referring to some sort of direct or indirect coercion ("come on, everyone does it, don't be frigid") then this is an example of unaddressed sexual entitlement; Separated from specific acts, this disgusting attitude has been around for millennia but is now part of a package of gendered privileges now being slowly resolved. It can't be considered specifically related to porn just because of it's contemporary flavour.

Of course the patriarchy exists, I am reminded of it when I walk down a street, when I switch my TV on, when I speak to my younger siblings or the girls I volunteer with and hear what is happening to them and their peers... when huge numbers of women are raped and/or suffer domestic abuse and are blamed, when I shop for clothes or toys for my daughter...

And when you switch the telly on, and you listen to other women and observe some behaviours, do you ever note how men are sometimes derided and emasculated ? It works both ways. There is often the view that a man can't find his way out of a wet paper bag without the help of a woman, and he is portrayed as some bumbling idiot. Women don't deserve to be treated as less, or paid less or demeaned in any way - but men don't deserve to be demeaned either and in trying to level the playing field we are on our way to allowing that to happen. I think half the time men can't do right for doing wrong.

AmIHumanYet - Do you believe in positive discrimination to redress the balance or do you believe that the best PERSON should be chosen for any particular role?

NeoFaust, I'm not even going to bother, if you can't understand a simple word like 'expected' and completely disregard the negative effects of certain things on people, including children FFS then I think I'm wasting my time

Roussette- very common silencing tactic 'but things are bad for men too!!!' and you completely ignore things like rape, domestic abuse, child victims of this culture etc. to do so

Happy International Women's Day
-sigh-

I have never met a man who has treated me as if my orgasm and enjoyment is as important as his...and I have been around the block a bit. Mainstream porn turns my stomach really some poor woman getting ragged about. And I am submissive in nature and into kinky stuff but porn doesnt display the deep and meaningful connection you have with a partner AFTER you choked on his c*. Anyway I watch it sometimes but tend to stick yo women's porn, sensual porn ect rather than the look how big your ass hole is if I stand on your head type stuff....

Well... I have met men who have treated me as if my orgasm and enjoyment is far far more important than his by far and I too have been around the block in my time. I also tend to stick to sensual porn or literary eroticism and I do agree that some mainstream porn is just awful.

AmI - I take offence at me - a woman - completely ignoring rape and domestic abuse. It goes on and it's awful and I was in fact in a professional capacity talking to someone the other day who had suffered at the hands of her husband for very many years - it's not something that goes by unnoticed or brushed under the carpet as far as I'm concerned. I just wish also to look at the other side of the coin with regard to men and 'the patriarchal society'. And I don't think I could silence you even if I wanted to! Which I don't BTW.

JellyMum1 - I am really sorry that your sexual experiences have been only with selfish men. I cam assure you they aren't all selfish.

AmIHumanYet I believe that we do still live in a patriarchal society although it is not as bad as when I was a young(er) woman but there is still a long way to go.

I consider myself a feminist but I don't hate men even if I hate some of the things they do. Women don't have to entirely demean/emasculate men to make ourselves understood or to get what are our rights such as equal pay.

As for porn - I haven't read every post on this thread, sorry - it worries me considerably how easy it is to access porn and I do fear for the sexual education of children now and in the future if this is what they are subjected to.

AmI I'm really trying my best to properly engage with you. I just wanted clarification on your experiences because obviously I haven't experienced them. I'm a man and do not recognise my gender or mentality in anything you describe, or recognise any other men I know. Please, let's try to have an open and reasoned dialogue without assuming the other is being deliberately obtuse. After all, you haven't presented a reasoned argument or non-biased evidence source, but I'm still gamely trying to have an adult discussion.

So again, please clarify what forms these expectations take, because I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting the entirely legitimate search for a sexually compatible partner with someone trying to force you (and the female gender) into a particular mould.

Other people on the thread, please speak out if you've identified a gap in my understanding as If hate for this discussion to end shortly just because I'm missing something obvious.

Dammit *end sourly, sodding auto correct.

'So again, please clarify what forms these expectations take, because I'm pretty sure you're misinterpreting the entirely legitimate search for a sexually compatible partner with someone trying to force you (and the female gender) into a particular mould.'

I find it EXTREMELY offensive that you are telling me that I have misinterpreted the experiences I have had, I find your attitude to be fucking disgusting and for some reason I don't want to describe to you the times I have done things sexually that I didn't want to, that caused me pain or demeaned me

NeoFaust

FWIW I don't think you're missing anything at all and agree with what you've written thus far.

Expectation comes in all shapes/forms, from the small everyday stuff to the other end of the scale. Everyone has some sort of expectation when entering a relatiionship and sex is no different.

In our household we have an extremely balanced relationship and the pleasure of both is equally important, as is our desire to please. I have, however, been on the end of one-way relationships. IMHO just because people have different expectations, it does not mean that any party is more/less obliged to indulge them.

Sadly I think women are on the end of a very thin wedge and when I look at my circle of friends see a lot of selfish males. However, do I think this is wholly attributable to porn? No of course not and in this respect, believe that porn only serves to indulge an already selfish persons view of women.

As I tried to say to AmI previously, people are perfectly capable of distinguishing the 'real' and 'fantasy' and for most, it really is obvious what the differences are.

Really, Technotropic? Does that include children? Are children perfectly capable of distinguishing the real and fantasy? Are you going to disregard entire groups of women and girls experiences too?

Yes, AmI

Why are you completely bypassing and ignoring the TES link I provided about children and porn. Studies have been conducted with thousands of young children about the expectations you're talking about. Of course your personal experiences are valid but that does not exclude significant research that has been carried out on a wider scale.

But yes, I have no doubt that children are fully capable of distinguishing between what's real and fantasy. Do you have children yourself?

Really, we cannot win and I have seen this kind of reverse argument all the time on MN.

If a non feminist says, "I don't see a pay gap because all the people I know earn the same or more than their male peers", then the typical response is that personal experiences are not as valid because the bigger picture shows that there is a huge pay gap.

If a non feminist says, "I don't see much sexism in my immediate surroundings because I live/work in an equal environment", then the response is the same.

This type of feminist argument occurs constantly on MN. Can you not see this with your approach here?

Neo and others are trying to engage but I feel that this is completely futile as there is absolutely no give/take with you. You're not even intersted in having a rational conversation with him. It should have been patently obvious from your OP that you had only one agenda i.e. to give men a bollocking, and 7 pages on, this has not changed.

How on earth are men/women to engage on various issues if it's really like talking to a brick wall

AmI I don't want to hear about the specifics your partners sexual requests (though do feel free to share if you think it will aid my understanding), I want to know what form the coercion you obviously felt under took. Was it physical? Emotional? Some sort of social?

You see, I do accept that women are under a lot of pressure in society to confirm to certain roles. I also accept that the pressures on women are different to the pressures on men and, to a degree, more limiting. However I certainly don't agree that the source of that pressure is solely, out even primarily, from men, or that is influenced by porn to any degree other than in its nuance.

I agree with Technotropic that the vast majority of people are able to distinguish between reality and fantasy, and therefore between what they hope for in a partner and the real boundaries of those they fall in love with.

I agree that the access of young people without that understanding to porn is unfortunate - however it is also unfortunate when the far-too-young get access to alcohol, motor vehicles or any of a dozen forms of legitimate adult recreation. That 10 year old who stole his parents car to go to his grandmother - should this make us question the appropriateness of car ownership, or make us more vigilant in parenting?

Also, I should note that you have consistently dismissed the experiences of everyone on this thread who disagrees with you, but none of us have called your attitude disgusting despite its appallingly self-centred arrogance. Please extend us the same courtesy in return.