Coming Clean by Liz Fraser

[RhinoRhino]

A couple of threads that I had posted on relating to the Memoir ‘Coming Clean’ by Liz Fraser have been deleted from the MN site, apparently due to non-compliance of the MN guidelines from the posters. MN are obviously well within their rights to delete threads if they demonstrably fail to comply with their guidelines, nevertheless I feel strongly that MN posters are given a platform to critique this book, and also any other public ventures by this author. It would be neither fair nor right that posters are completely silenced in this particular matter.

As such, and in line with Mumsnet not seeing “anything wrong with honest feedback” I would like to make the comment that Coming Clean as a Memoir falls short due to the shaky and not entirely truthful narrative. There are certain facts contained within this memoir that are easily disprovable (for example, relating to the marital status of both author and her partner when they started their ill-fated affair), which leaves a massive question mark over the rest of the book. Is it entirely reasonable to make money from something that is promoted as truthful when it is, in fact, not entirely true?

I think there are people whose lives have been negatively impacted by the book and its subject matter, and I hope that MN will agree that these people should have a voice, as should anybody who wants to comment on a published piece of work.

As long as posters align their comments with the MN guidelines, this is a topic that people may wish to keep discussing, and also keep in the public domain. And if MN wants to provide a set of rules particular to this thread – certainly if they are arbitrary and differ from the general guidelines - I am sure it would be very helpful.

Mumsnet, please help us to help each other by keeping in the public domain something that us silenced mums feel should be out there.

exactly this. I haven’t suffered abuse myself but a loved one has and I helped to pick up the pieces. I say that only for the reason that to be anywhere associated with what happened (over a similar period to LF) is still immensely painful for me and that’s with me one part removed from it. Venice (sorry, VENEZIA) and Copenhagen are two places that are hugely associated with her … happenings (whatever they were. But let’s go on the book for the TRUTH) so none of the many many many posts over the last couple of weeks make any sense to me at all. Like, no sense

on a lighter note regarding the manly converse. As a fan myself or at least I was - bit off them now due to overexposure - I can tell you they fall to bits eventually. Over the years I’ve had a dozen pairs which all end up going the same way with splits and holes. I suspect the oldest converse in converse history live in the same magic cupboard as the oldest vest in vest history where they magically reproduce whenever required

MANKY converse. Bloody autocorrect

I don't drink and am in recovery and can say that when I did years ago I put my family through the ringer - but they all drink normally and I would not expect them not to. And believe me, I'm pretty sure they were traumatised by some of my behaviour. Lots of people on here are critical of LF for enjoying nights out drinking. While I can't stand the woman I think that's unfair. Just because Mike was in the throes of his illness when they were together there's no reason why she should not drink. She's not an alcoholic. He is, although he is doing very well in recovery. And well done him 👍

This is an interesting area and I find myself agreeing with both schools of thought here.

Personally, I avoid places where people drink to cover social inhibitions- Dutch courage drinking. This includes most mums' groups and work socials.

As someone recovering from the emotional aftermath of abuse, I’m heightened to the changes in behaviour and thought processes that come with people who are even just slightly drunk. The mood change of the evening can be really triggering for me and my flight response is on high alert. It reminds me of what it was like living with my ex-husband. He wasn't an alcoholic, but after a few drinks, he became a different person, as many others do.

Choosing not to drink, both for the sake of my child's wellbeing - in an abusive relationship most women are ready to protect their child at any given moment - and because it can trigger low moods for me, has allowed me to observe how people change as the night progresses.

Women are usually the worst in this regard. First, they can't cope with someone choosing a soft drink, pressuring with remarks like "oh come on, just one," or "don't be boring." Then, they move on to passive-aggressively "mentioning" anyone who's not out, leading to a full-on attack mode. The description of the mums' night out She posts brings back memories of past experiences.

There always seems to be a person like LF and her lynch mob in every class, controlling and abusive to the mums they consider to be lesser parents/people. At our school full time working mums usually had the boot put into them. ironically, the mums knowingly shagging another’s husband got away Scott free… until she ventured into “space” owned by a bigger bitch!

The way she speaks for her child, manipulating and gaslighting, is truly disturbing. “We love it here. We call it home.” The undertone is “don’t we, don’t you dare say otherwise or you’re in trouble.” When it comes to her relationship with the child's father, I can only imagine what thoughts were thrust upon her.

Over the long term, alcohol rarely enhances relationships of any sort. Most issues stem from drunken conversations or behaviours. I doubt many people start affairs sober. Hit their partners when sober, punch people, leave laptops in pubs, etc., when sober.

@Physicsrevision Something else that I find not too nice is the way she never refers to her daughter as 'my daughter' or 'Scout' but always as 'she' or 'her'. She has a name. It's not for privacy, as she announced her daughter's name when she was born, and you see the odd reference to her name on gifts or cards from her siblings. It's very odd. And cold.

My mum is like that once she has lost interest in someone ( or they are no longer useful to her) she stops using their name I became she about the age of 12 I have her only grandchildren they are now “the children” never refers to them by name thinks because they can only acknowledge themselves not somebody else

I do envy her for so many things. The only tie I have to my ex is our child. Now that my son is old enough to make his own arrangements with him, I try to have as little to do with my ex as possible, but even after 16 years, if his name pops up on my phone, I still feel anxious. We’re currently awaiting exam results, so I anticipate issues with him again. He hasn’t been very supportive of our child through schooling but has high expectations of him 🤷‍♀️. The ease that L has with her exes is enviable, especially her most recent one. Having just stopped fighting, they’re lucky to have such easy interactions. I used to hate the drop-offs and pick-ups, but I guess they must have had some expert mediation. These are the kinds of things estranged parents would find interesting to read about – how to quickly get from hell to such a point of bliss. When my child was young, I felt like a caged tiger whenever he was away from me. For years, I played the ‘happy families’ card to avoid any issues for our child at school or sports, for example, but it took a toll on me. She seems to have avoided the caged tiger stage that is so typical of many divorced mothers (in particular) I know. Often I wish I could separate myself from my child like she can from hers. Mine is older than her youngest was when she moved to Italy. I just couldn’t have found the emotional space to do that.

@Raydt – confessions of a postie? Have you ever thought of writing a book about your weekend ‘activities’?

And @Raffington55 and @Physicsrevision – interesting insights into attitudes towards drinking, esp after being negatively affected by it. Ms Fraser has in the past put to the record on SM that she has bought an alcoholic drink simply to post a picture of it, but doesn’t actually drink it. From memory she seemed to be implying this was a regular occurrence. Seems like a very odd thing to do (if it was an accurate statement). What would be the point? That would be a whole new relationship with alcohol that I’ve never heard of anywhere else. Buying a drink just to take a photo for your followers. But not actually drinking it. Bizarre conduct, if true.

I suppose one explanation is that there are no calories to run off if you don’t imbibe them in the first place. She definitely has an unhealthy relationship with calories (public domain info), so it would kinda make sense in that context.

And today’s SM. Ms Fraser apparently detests “coffee snobbery”, because it is “all show”. Hmmmm. Who do we know who of who manages a ponsey posh coffee place, and probably spends his working hours immersed in coffee snobbery? Oh yeah. The father of her (soon to be reading and writing and therefore able to read SM posts) child. Classy! Ms Fraser still trying to troll her own child’s other parent. Still acting like a bitchy, witchy troll towards somebody with whom she shares custody of a precious and vulnerable child. (And yes, I know we are all convinced that Mike pays precisely no attention to Liz’s silly attention seeking, and that he has moved on with a new partner, and that he is happy and sober, and working and thriving, and now able to enjoy time with his daughter, but that’s obviously not going to stop Liz from making it her life’s work to annoy him in spite of the potential damage to her child ……….) @Physicsrevision Her relationship with her most recent ex is anything but easy. If the relationship appeared toxic (as documented in Coming Clean) the split up has been worse by an order of magnitude. I imagine one of the drivers for suddenly being 'friends' with some of the school mums is to be able to malign the ex and ensure people only hear negative things about him. Prior to the new custody arrangements there was no evidence of any school mum friendships. They've gone from zero to hero within an unnaturally short space of time.

But onto other things. I see the silenced women are still silenced. No updates on the submissions criteria. I thought the timetable I provided a couple of weeks ago was pretty generous, but I hadn’t taken into consideration holidays to Copenhagen and Venice, ‘business meetings’, writing short stories with no end, or cycling to Karen Blixen’s house etc. I had put in time for running and swimming, so the proposed deadline wasn’t too onerous. It is just utterly bizarre to trumpet over SM, and to elbow your way into interviews with BBC Radio Headington etc, this Publishing Company which will do great things for silenced women - great things which will outlive us all - then prioritise swimming and holidays rather than do any actual work. It’s been months since anything happened. The woman is not serious at all.

Forget trolling her ex, she’s gaslighting her child.

I wonder who looks after her daughter when she has business meetings and why she had to leave in chaos when she owns the flat she could have stayed

Perhaps she’s locked in the basement with a banana? Like father like daughter 🍌

I have no idea why she had to leave at all, let alone in chaos. She owns the flat outright and M had long brhore left Venice, his choice, so there would be no child contact related issues. Venice was S’s home. It would have been better alroubd if L had stayed. The real chaos seems to have happened when the split following their reunion in Oxford. 🤷‍♀️ As always, nothing adds up!

Following today’s meeting there is, of course, some very exciting news that unfortunately can’t be shared yet. Who called this bingo number earlier?! Let’s add it to the list of perhaps six exciting things that have happened so far this summer, which also can’t be shared. What a joker!

This

Guys, I just can't handle the instagram anymore. It's so bizarre and actually I almost feel sad for her. The number of posts, the manic quality to them. I can't.

I agree. It's getting put of control.

Agreed. I'm so sick of her constant self absorption. That silly post about the clothes she left behind in Venice meaning there was a glimmer of hope she would 'recover' and return. How melodramatic. Will this woman ever get over herself? It's embarrassing.

Liz, you had a bad relationship and you got dumped. All this twaddle about 'recovery'. You were eventually
put out to graze, and your massive ego still can't let it go.

Wow she spouts a lot of tosh, it’s her flat she rents it out to people for holidays, of course she was going to go back, she will have to go and do maintenance and she must employ a local person to do cleaning and bed changing for the handovers when other people stay there. You would expect her to leave clothes there it is not some miraculous thing

Absolutely. And on your earlier question about leaving the Venice flat in chaos (when she didn't need to, it was already her home) back in the Mike breakup days - she followed him back to the U.K. when he left because she wouldn't "allow" him to leave her.

What happened to Scout while she was having this fabulous day? She’s a 5 year old girl. Was she left at the flat alone? Left with near strangers?

This poor child is in the middle of a huge transition. After not seeing her father for most of her conscious life, suddenly she is, despite him allegedly being too dangerous just months before.

For all of her life she has been moved from pillar to post, only staying in one place to meet the legal obligations of attending school.

There is no way that L secured the job of her life with a young child in tow. Or that a hiring decision was made on the spot. That hotel is part of a large international hotel chain. It’s not an independent coffee shop!

if I was that child’s father, grandparent or adult sibling, right now I would be asking serious questions of L about the logistics of yesterday and where S fitted into this. She is not Venetian. She does not speak Italian. She is not an accessory.

Looks like she was still out drinking when it was dark. That’s a long day bar hopping for a child if she was even there but there was no sign or mention of her.

Totally agree with the above. Since Liz met Mike none of her 4 children have ever been her priority. She's put - and continues to put - Scout in some very risky and distressing situations. And abandoned the other 3 during their very important teen years. If that's 'expert parenting' I'm glad I'm a novice!

Even gatecrashing the first flat rental of her Venice flat. Who does that? Turn up on the doorstep in a distressed state and muscle your way into another family's holiday? People you don't know from Adam. With your small child. Where's the thought for your baby? Don't they have hotels in Venice?

As @Mortonswood said above: nothing ever adds up.

Well, except it is always all about Liz and all about the moment and all about attention and passive aggression towards those who have stood up to her. (Mike)

@RhinoRhino WHAT?!!!

Even gatecrashing the first flat rental of her Venice flat. Who does that? Turn up on the doorstep in a distressed state and muscle your way into another family's holiday? People you don't know from Adam. With your small child. Where's the thought for your baby? Don't they have hotels in Venice?

Another day and another day of S as acting paparazzi and coat holder? Does she wonder why the childcare industry is so vital - in terms of needs and profits? So the working parents can work. I’m a midwife. Imagine I took my kids to work with me. There are plenty of single parents working in the NHS, it just doesn’t happen.

I work in Family Solutions Service (FSS), and we also don’t take our children to work with us. I can see there are times in some workplaces where it’s ok, but this should be the exception, not the rule. She makes it clear that money is no object. Perhaps it’s time to hire an au pair? Perhaps one of her adult children has a friend who would love to do this for the summer or a gap year?

Liz would like us to know that S came with her on the PRIVATE taxi and got to sit by the hotel's pool (one of the BEST in the world, don't you know). She probably did some intellectual colouring whilst her mother flirted her way to a vague and insincere offer of work.