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War in Ukraine/Russia is ramping up significantly. Which political party would you feel safest leading Ireland during this period?

134 replies

Taeandcraic · 20/11/2024 09:48

For me Independents & AontĂș.. I can't see Michael Collins or Peadar Toibin doing anything to escalate or draw Ireland into conflict.
We are very close to the UK & Keir Stamer does not fill me with confidence.
I world not feel safe if SF, FF, FG or with any of the left leaning parties were leading us through this period.
I'll be voting taking European security into account.

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Taeandcraic · 22/11/2024 09:10

@moth@moth

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Brownwitch · 22/11/2024 09:14

OchonAgusOchonOh · 22/11/2024 09:04

You haven't answered my question as to how you define the word woman.

If I had a son who identified as a girl, I would support him as best I could. So obviously he could dress and present how he wished. I would also help him to explore the reasons he felt this way. I think for some people it is a rejection of the rigid gender stereotypes that have become more prevalent over the last few decades and I fully support rejecting them.

However, I would also ensure that he knows he can't change his sex and that there are certain areas/issues where sex matters and as a male he needs to be conscious of females rights to dignity and safety and so should not use the female facilities.

Back to your daughter - how can you tell the difference between "any male" using the bathrooms and a male identifying as female using the bathrooms? Will they have to pass a test of some kind? Will they have to dress in a way that "proves" they are trans or will you just accept their word for it. I recently came across a trans man at work who looked pretty identical to many of the other female students. Short hair, hoodie, jeans, no make-up. Very female looking. I took the students word for it.

You are not supporting them though if you don't let them fully be who they are and all that comes with that. You are seriously letting them down.

Taeandcraic · 22/11/2024 09:15

Brownwitch · 22/11/2024 07:54

How would you feel if it was your son who identified as a female? Would you say "You have to be a boy" and deal with all the mental health consequences of that for them?
If there was a male in my daughters school who identified as a female I would be happy for them to use the female bathroom. I do not mean that any male could use the female bathroom. The world has changed since we were kids and the young people today are much more open minded to this.
I think it is very strange that this could be the most important issue for someone in this general election.

I certainly would not expect every female in the school to compromise her comfort levels in their own personal spaces to accomodate a male who believes he is something he is not or will never be.
I would hope the school had a unisex toilet he could use.
My girls are teens & are very gender critical as are their friends. They certainly do not want any males in their female only spaces & will not be jeopardising their comfort levels to pander to dilussional males with penis.

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Brownwitch · 22/11/2024 09:17

Taeandcraic · 22/11/2024 09:15

I certainly would not expect every female in the school to compromise her comfort levels in their own personal spaces to accomodate a male who believes he is something he is not or will never be.
I would hope the school had a unisex toilet he could use.
My girls are teens & are very gender critical as are their friends. They certainly do not want any males in their female only spaces & will not be jeopardising their comfort levels to pander to dilussional males with penis.

My daughter and her friends would not feel uncomfortable with it at all.
Thankfully they have been raised to be open minded and accepting of others.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 22/11/2024 09:26

Brownwitch · 22/11/2024 09:14

You are not supporting them though if you don't let them fully be who they are and all that comes with that. You are seriously letting them down.

We have different definitions of what classifies support. There is plenty of research that shows most teens will grow out of it. The number of children with autism who are transitioning is shocking. It is quite likely that many of them feel like outsiders and latch on to a gender identity that doesn't match their sex as a way of belonging. I think mindless affirmation is doing your child a disservice. They should explore their feelings and understand why they feel that way. Regardless of how they feel, they cannot change sex and it is important that they know that and respect the rights to safety, dignity and fairness of those who are the opposite sex.

You still haven't told me how you define the word "woman".

Taeandcraic · 22/11/2024 09:32

Well my daughters are females & value their female privacy & safe spaces as they should.
I am so so happy Ireland is becoming so gender critical. Females do not have penis. No penis should ever be in female only spaces.
My daughters will never pander to males who feel entitled to invade female spaces. Those males need to man up & advocate for their own trans toilets, sports teams & prisons. They are not female & never will be!
Please teach your daughters basic biology @Brownwitch & also the different female /male anatomy.
You would do very well volunteering for an organisation like TENI or Belong 2, especially coming up to an election đŸ«ŁđŸ€«

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MarieDeGournay · 22/11/2024 10:08

'only AontĂș knows what a woman is' is not quite as strong a statement this time round because as far as I can see, none of the parties are foregrounding gender ideology in their election manifestos or leaflets, and some have actually removed pro-trans material from their website.

I think the referendum results have made them think twice, and I also believe that the main body of most of the parties + backbenchers never believed the TWAW guff anyway.

The downside to that is that none of the parties have been challenged about their gender policies in interviews, because they haven't mentioned them in their electioneering. And housing, health, cost of living, immigration are such important issues, they obviously take up most space in interviews, there's not much room for asking about women's rights.

They've all been well challenged on my doorstep though, and so far the canvassers/candidates were very open to what I said - I know other posters had pushback, but I noticed a very different attitude this time, nobody said 'Ah but most oppressed minority/be kind' or anything like that.

I think the important thing is to keep the pressure on the new, or 'new'🙄government, after the election to repeal the GRA, restore the term 'woman' to its biological meaning in equality legislation, replace the word 'gender' with the words 'women' and 'men' in their biological meaning, restore legal protection to women by making biological sex, not gender, a protected characteristic again, etc.

The election isn't an endpoint, fighting to restore women's rights, and protect the ones we have, will go on.

Taeandcraic · 22/11/2024 10:13

MarieDeGournay · 22/11/2024 10:08

'only AontĂș knows what a woman is' is not quite as strong a statement this time round because as far as I can see, none of the parties are foregrounding gender ideology in their election manifestos or leaflets, and some have actually removed pro-trans material from their website.

I think the referendum results have made them think twice, and I also believe that the main body of most of the parties + backbenchers never believed the TWAW guff anyway.

The downside to that is that none of the parties have been challenged about their gender policies in interviews, because they haven't mentioned them in their electioneering. And housing, health, cost of living, immigration are such important issues, they obviously take up most space in interviews, there's not much room for asking about women's rights.

They've all been well challenged on my doorstep though, and so far the canvassers/candidates were very open to what I said - I know other posters had pushback, but I noticed a very different attitude this time, nobody said 'Ah but most oppressed minority/be kind' or anything like that.

I think the important thing is to keep the pressure on the new, or 'new'🙄government, after the election to repeal the GRA, restore the term 'woman' to its biological meaning in equality legislation, replace the word 'gender' with the words 'women' and 'men' in their biological meaning, restore legal protection to women by making biological sex, not gender, a protected characteristic again, etc.

The election isn't an endpoint, fighting to restore women's rights, and protect the ones we have, will go on.

As I said above Labour very captured by gender ideology & defensive of their stance.
The Fianna FĂĄil TD I had was actually very good at listening to my concerns, said it was coming up on the doorsteps but stopped short & wouldn't answer "what is a woman"?!
AontĂș, Independents & the Republican candidate have no issues whatsoever answering that question!

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Abhannmor · 22/11/2024 10:14

Apileofballyhoo · 22/11/2024 01:34

I wouldn't vote for AontĂș either because of their anti abortion stance. I have never voted FF but I actually do like MM and if I was in his constituency I might throw him a vote. I feel the element of the FF party I most dislike would actually love to be rid of him.

I don't believe in the self ID, transitioning children, gender on a spectrum nonsense. I voted no/no in the referendum too, for the same reason as MintLion, ambiguous wording. Didn't seem to make any sense as a replacement for what was there already, and seemed to be a big waste of time and money and cheap effort to appeal to some kind of progressive thought or something. I'm not sure what the point of it was.

I'm economically left of centre and housing in this country is a fucking disgrace and I blame FF for that mostly, things got out of control during the Celtic Tiger years, an enormous mess was made and the solution was build more fucking roads for people to commute on. I am no fan of how anything has been handled since either.

There seems to be a laziness in this country of copying what the UK have done/are doing rather than looking further afield. Germany cannot be classed as left wing like say the Scandi countries, but somehow in Germany there is decent housing and health care. The SlĂĄintecare model seems to be just to copy the NHS and that's in shit.

We all want to own our own homes here as renting is so precarious. The solution isn't shit homes to rent, it's decent homes to rent on a long term basis. Nor is the solution massive housing estates with no facilties and no public transport. I live in one with a tiny shop that nobody could afford to do their weekly shop in, or even buy butter or dog food if you have forgotten that, but the walk to a bigger shop is too far for anyone not fit, and if you don't drive the only solution is a taxi.

Keeping a house going requires two salaries/wages but then you need child care which is also very expensive and I wonder about the quality, seeing as it's not a well paid job.

The gap between rich and poor is getting wider too and despite a fairly progressive tax system I feel like there is a wider issue where people at the lower end and lower middle will never be able to buy a home, and there we go back to the precarious renting.

GPs surgeries are expected to take on ever increasing numbers of patients that are paid for by the state, but I dont know if they are actually getting the resources they need. There seems to be vasts amount of money spent on websites and advertising regarding mental health but very few actual services if you do have a problem.

There is a HSE community healthcare facility near me, but it has no staff and is serviced by visiting staff a couple of days a week. Meanwhile I know two newly qualified doctors who headed off to Australia as soon as they qualified, after getting their expensive medical degrees here.

There is just so much stuff being done wrong. The pouches for the mobile phones is just a very good example of the kind of thing, millions being spent in something that in itself isn't a bad idea, but should be so low down on the list of priorities as a luxury item rather than a necessity when there are other cheaper solutions for the problem.

As somebody said on the radio or somewhere recently, all the houses are full of people on holiday using airbnb because they can't get a hotel, and all the hotels are full of people who need to live in houses. That's a huge problem right there.

The children's hospital is another one, the price of it and a doc in Crumlin told me recently they forgot they would need offices for doctors, doctors don't just endlessly walk around the hospital on their rounds, and they haven't built enough office space. That doc can't wait to move though as what's there now is shocking in places.

It's hard to know who to vote for to be honest. I have only spoken about local issues at the door as I honestly don't think any of the parties are really doing any deep long term thinking or planning about anything.

Great Post @Apileofballyhoo solve housing and everything else falls into place imo? Take the heat out of immigration too.

Taeandcraic · 22/11/2024 10:15

MarieDeGournay · 22/11/2024 10:08

'only AontĂș knows what a woman is' is not quite as strong a statement this time round because as far as I can see, none of the parties are foregrounding gender ideology in their election manifestos or leaflets, and some have actually removed pro-trans material from their website.

I think the referendum results have made them think twice, and I also believe that the main body of most of the parties + backbenchers never believed the TWAW guff anyway.

The downside to that is that none of the parties have been challenged about their gender policies in interviews, because they haven't mentioned them in their electioneering. And housing, health, cost of living, immigration are such important issues, they obviously take up most space in interviews, there's not much room for asking about women's rights.

They've all been well challenged on my doorstep though, and so far the canvassers/candidates were very open to what I said - I know other posters had pushback, but I noticed a very different attitude this time, nobody said 'Ah but most oppressed minority/be kind' or anything like that.

I think the important thing is to keep the pressure on the new, or 'new'🙄government, after the election to repeal the GRA, restore the term 'woman' to its biological meaning in equality legislation, replace the word 'gender' with the words 'women' and 'men' in their biological meaning, restore legal protection to women by making biological sex, not gender, a protected characteristic again, etc.

The election isn't an endpoint, fighting to restore women's rights, and protect the ones we have, will go on.

@MarieDeGournay AontĂș are the only party who have committed to repealing the GRA, so how do we get the main parties to follow suit if AontĂș don't get into government?

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Brownwitch · 22/11/2024 10:16

@Taeandcraic
@OchonAgusOchonOh

We will obviously never agree so no point arguing about it.

We will see how the people vote in the election.

Taeandcraic · 22/11/2024 10:19

https://www.rte.ie/news/election-24/2024/1121/1482288-aontu-manifesto-analysis/

AontĂș manifesto linked here from yesterday with their stance on gender ideology crystal clear. It's common sense.

It's manifesto says clearly "a woman is an adult female".

War in Ukraine/Russia is ramping up significantly. Which political party would you feel safest leading Ireland during this period?
War in Ukraine/Russia is ramping up significantly. Which political party would you feel safest leading Ireland during this period?
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OchonAgusOchonOh · 22/11/2024 10:27

Brownwitch · 22/11/2024 10:16

@Taeandcraic
@OchonAgusOchonOh

We will obviously never agree so no point arguing about it.

We will see how the people vote in the election.

No we won't. But I would still like to understand how you define the word "woman" as you have ignored that question each time I asked you.

Marblesbackagain · 22/11/2024 10:27

OchonAgusOchonOh · 21/11/2024 14:24

Yeah. ÁontĂș also want to roll back abortion so not exactly shining lights in terms of women's rights...

This. Not a chance I would ever vote on a party who fundamentally believes women should not have access to abortion. They also have a questionable history of their take on LGBTQ+.

They hopefully won't get many but they will appeal to the hate brigade. Hopefully the majority will have sense.

Taeandcraic · 22/11/2024 10:36

Marblesbackagain · 22/11/2024 10:27

This. Not a chance I would ever vote on a party who fundamentally believes women should not have access to abortion. They also have a questionable history of their take on LGBTQ+.

They hopefully won't get many but they will appeal to the hate brigade. Hopefully the majority will have sense.

Their questionable take on LGBTQplus.. Are you referring to this part of their manifesto where they correctly define a woman is a biological adult female... How is that questionable? And have vouched for female only spaces? Please don't muddle up the lgb with the tq, entirely different groups.

War in Ukraine/Russia is ramping up significantly. Which political party would you feel safest leading Ireland during this period?
War in Ukraine/Russia is ramping up significantly. Which political party would you feel safest leading Ireland during this period?
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Marblesbackagain · 22/11/2024 10:39

Taeandcraic · 22/11/2024 10:36

Their questionable take on LGBTQplus.. Are you referring to this part of their manifesto where they correctly define a woman is a biological adult female... How is that questionable? And have vouched for female only spaces? Please don't muddle up the lgb with the tq, entirely different groups.

I am not going down the endless rabbit holes on this platform. I don't agree with their stance on a number of issues. End of. They won't be near power as they have alienated a majority.

Abhannmor · 22/11/2024 10:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Taeandcraic · 22/11/2024 10:40

@Marblesbackagain we seemed to have gained you & lost @Brownwitch ... Interesting & both with the same stance..
You (both??!) should really volunteer for organisations like Belong To or TENI especially coming up to an election!

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mollyfolk · 22/11/2024 10:50

I thought this post was about which party could keep us safest in a war?

The thread is starting to read like an AontĂș political broadcast. Hopefully no party that is keen to bring us back to the 1980's in a social sense, will ever become a formidable presence here.

With 14,000 people homeless in the state, in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, I like many others, be voting with housing in mind: if we fixed housing it would fix so much and yes, it would take the whole heat out of the immigration debate.

Taeandcraic · 22/11/2024 10:52

Oh you are back @Brownwitch.
Here is AontĂș's manifesto complete with it's strong common sense stance on Gender Ideology. All AontĂș's representatives believe correctly "a woman is an adult biology female", female only spaces. & males cannot become pregnant! Common bloody sense. đŸ˜±A vote for AontĂș is a No to Wokeness which this country has far too much of.

https://www.rte.ie/news/election-24/2024/1121/1482288-aontu-manifesto-analysis/

What is in AontĂș's 'common sense' manifesto?

For a party that promotes itself as the champion of efficiency, the fact AontĂș's election manifesto was not available for the start of the press conference to launch the key document was not exactly ideal.

https://www.rte.ie/news/election-24/2024/1121/1482288-aontu-manifesto-analysis

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mollyfolk · 22/11/2024 10:53

Thanks for that summary @Brownwitch

Also whichcandidate.ie
Is a useful tool.

MothToAnInferno · 22/11/2024 11:11

OchonAgusOchonOh · 22/11/2024 08:46

I think you may have misunderstood my point.

Yes, I agree that you cannot be anti-abortion and pro-women. My point is that you cannot be pro-women if you don't know what a woman is.

No, I disagree. I don't think you have to sit there and repeat that trans women are not women to be able to be pro woman. That sort of nonsense is echo chamber, tunnel vision posturing of people who spend too long online. It's actually a really minor issue. 900 people have changed their birth certs since 2015 when the GRA came in. The craze is burning itself out amongst young people. With all of the very real problems facing Irish society 100 people a year changing their birth certs doesn't factor anywhere on the scale of important things and I think someone can be pro woman without being forced to stand there and define woman for the benefit of people who live on mumsnet and twitter.

Brownwitch · 22/11/2024 11:13

That is a good tool @mollyfolk
some interesting questions I had not considered but my results came up similar to how I intended to vote, although in a slightly different order

Taeandcraic · 22/11/2024 11:16

MothToAnInferno · 22/11/2024 11:11

No, I disagree. I don't think you have to sit there and repeat that trans women are not women to be able to be pro woman. That sort of nonsense is echo chamber, tunnel vision posturing of people who spend too long online. It's actually a really minor issue. 900 people have changed their birth certs since 2015 when the GRA came in. The craze is burning itself out amongst young people. With all of the very real problems facing Irish society 100 people a year changing their birth certs doesn't factor anywhere on the scale of important things and I think someone can be pro woman without being forced to stand there and define woman for the benefit of people who live on mumsnet and twitter.

Edited

What is a woman @mothtoaninferno

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