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War in Ukraine/Russia is ramping up significantly. Which political party would you feel safest leading Ireland during this period?

134 replies

Taeandcraic · 20/11/2024 09:48

For me Independents & AontĂș.. I can't see Michael Collins or Peadar Toibin doing anything to escalate or draw Ireland into conflict.
We are very close to the UK & Keir Stamer does not fill me with confidence.
I world not feel safe if SF, FF, FG or with any of the left leaning parties were leading us through this period.
I'll be voting taking European security into account.

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mollyfolk · 21/11/2024 19:48

I don't think they will get 10 seats but that is their goal. I'm surprised because a teeny tiny % of the Irish population are set to vote for them yet they seem over represented on here. Most people won't be voting with trans issues at the forefront. People care about housing - that's the number one priority at the moment.

As Northern Ireland is part of the UK it is not neutral no.

mollyfolk · 21/11/2024 19:49

Didn't Aontu say they wouldn't go into coalition with Fine Gael?

Taeandcraic · 21/11/2024 19:59

mollyfolk · 21/11/2024 19:49

Didn't Aontu say they wouldn't go into coalition with Fine Gael?

They said they wouldn't go into coalition with FG or the Greens. Today MM said he wouldn't go into coalition with AontĂș. It will all be very interesting the way it plays out.. As the other craicnetters above said it will be FF, FG & a hotchpotch of all different parties.

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Taeandcraic · 21/11/2024 20:05

mollyfolk · 21/11/2024 19:48

I don't think they will get 10 seats but that is their goal. I'm surprised because a teeny tiny % of the Irish population are set to vote for them yet they seem over represented on here. Most people won't be voting with trans issues at the forefront. People care about housing - that's the number one priority at the moment.

As Northern Ireland is part of the UK it is not neutral no.

To be honest I think a lot of parents certainly the ones I am friends with & on other groups I am a member of are very concerned with the trans ideology being pushed in schools, the sphe programme & basically how woke our education system has become. Many I know are voting AontĂș, including my dh, my mother (84 who always voted FF was very impressed by our local AontĂș candidate & said she is giving her No 1 due to their pledge on healthcare).
For a party only established 5 years ago they are quite formidable already & have 43 candidates running. I also like independent Ireland but we have no candidate locally.
My vote is going No 1 AontĂș, rest Independents.

OK so part of Ireland is not neutral, thanks for clearing that up @mollyfolk it leaves us vulnerable.

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mollyfolk · 21/11/2024 20:14

Well then you are living in a bubble. The issues are clear on polling - housing, immigration, childcare, cost of living,

Trans simply not top of the list for the majority. This is just a fact.

I also live in a bubble - a very different one - I don't know a single person who would vote for FF yet I accept a large % of the country will vote for them.

Taeandcraic · 21/11/2024 20:58

mollyfolk · 21/11/2024 20:14

Well then you are living in a bubble. The issues are clear on polling - housing, immigration, childcare, cost of living,

Trans simply not top of the list for the majority. This is just a fact.

I also live in a bubble - a very different one - I don't know a single person who would vote for FF yet I accept a large % of the country will vote for them.

I totally agree with you that a large percentage will vote FF & FG also.. I know also that my views & issues don't represent the majority but they are very important to me & like minded friends & acquaintances.
AontĂș don't meet all my criteria but they are they align the closest to me by far..

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BarbaraHoward · 21/11/2024 21:01

How could you vote for AontĂș on healthcare or women's rights given their stance on abortion? Confused It's non sensical.

Taeandcraic · 21/11/2024 21:11

Well I don't agree with letting males into female spaces & sports yet all the other parties do. Look at the Barbie Kardashian case for instance. Do you agree that males should be allowed in my changing rooms, sports teams & my private female spaces? Because I don't & neither do AontĂș.

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BarbaraHoward · 21/11/2024 21:14

Well, I believe transwomen are women if that's what you're asking, yes. But it's not a key factor and placing it above abortion when considering women's rights is absolutely insane to me.

But I should bow out, I'm in the North so I have no vote.

mollyfolk · 21/11/2024 22:06

Yes the mind boggles. I don't fully know where I stand on all the trans stuff but I won't be swayed by a party purporting to stand up for women but against abortion.

AontĂș are also leaning into an anti immigrant agenda and an anti NGO agenda.

Women will soon find themselves to be suffering under any party with these anti rights policies.

Brownwitch · 21/11/2024 22:23

This thread seems like a party political broadcast for Aontu.
Their core value is anti abortion and they only exist because PT disagreed with Sinn Fein on this issue. I would never vote for Aontu or Sinn Fein (for other reasons obviously).
I will vote for the party whose policies best align with me.
What's so great about being neutral anyway? I don't feel neutral in this war and absoutley support Ukraine. If all countries had remained neutral during WW2 we would probably be speaking German now.

mollyfolk · 21/11/2024 22:27

I have never met anyone who is concerned that our mainly Catholic school system with one of the highest single sex school rates outside of the Middle East is "woke"

But every day is a school day.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 21/11/2024 22:38

BarbaraHoward · 21/11/2024 21:14

Well, I believe transwomen are women if that's what you're asking, yes. But it's not a key factor and placing it above abortion when considering women's rights is absolutely insane to me.

But I should bow out, I'm in the North so I have no vote.

Really? So a person with a penis who identifies as a woman is a woman?

Can you tell me how you define the word woman? Preferably in a non- circular way.

MintLion · 21/11/2024 23:21

Aontu won 8 seats out of a total of 949 council seats in the recent local elections, which were held post this year's referendum. Not a convincing endorsement of the party by the electorate.
For what it's worth, I voted no/no in the recent referenda but my vote had nothing to do trans issues and I would never vote for Aontu. I'm against putting ambiguous language in the constitution that would inevitably end up in long protracted court challenges - I'm possibly also living in a bubble but most people I know were of a similar view.

Taeandcraic · 21/11/2024 23:50

BarbaraHoward · 21/11/2024 21:14

Well, I believe transwomen are women if that's what you're asking, yes. But it's not a key factor and placing it above abortion when considering women's rights is absolutely insane to me.

But I should bow out, I'm in the North so I have no vote.

How can a person with male anatomy be female @BarbaraHoward & why should male body parts be allowed in female spaces & sports?! Our female spaces need to be protected. AontĂș have pledged to repeal the GRA which is enough for me. I do not want males in my spaces or my daughters, I don't give a flying fuck what they identify as & neither do my girls.

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MothToAnInferno · 21/11/2024 23:58

Taeandcraic · 21/11/2024 14:39

I hear what you are saying. I don't agree with their abortion stance but at least they know what women actually are (biologically born females!) so they are getting my no 1.
Peadar & AontĂș were very strong during the referendum, any debate Peadar has been on he has got his points in very well without restoring to low blows. He is a very good debator & shows much more diplomacy than Michael Martin or Simon Harris who are the definition of snide & catty.

As someone who nearly died in the same hospital as Savita, of the same thing as Savita except I was allowed an abortion it makes me really angry that someone would put 'knows what a woman is' ahead of women's healthcare. Someone 'knowing what a woman is' wouldnt have saved me from dying of sepsis, it won't save my daughter if she ever finds herself in the same situation. Never would a party that has anti abortion as a core stance get my vote. If you are anti abortion you are anti women.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 22/11/2024 00:34

MothToAnInferno · 21/11/2024 23:58

As someone who nearly died in the same hospital as Savita, of the same thing as Savita except I was allowed an abortion it makes me really angry that someone would put 'knows what a woman is' ahead of women's healthcare. Someone 'knowing what a woman is' wouldnt have saved me from dying of sepsis, it won't save my daughter if she ever finds herself in the same situation. Never would a party that has anti abortion as a core stance get my vote. If you are anti abortion you are anti women.

It's not as simple as that. I will not vote for ÁontĂș because of their anti abortion stance. However, knowing what a woman/girl is may well prevent your daughter having to share a bedroom with a male classmate on a school trip.

If you don't know what a woman is, you can't be pro-women.

MothToAnInferno · 22/11/2024 01:24

OchonAgusOchonOh · 22/11/2024 00:34

It's not as simple as that. I will not vote for ÁontĂș because of their anti abortion stance. However, knowing what a woman/girl is may well prevent your daughter having to share a bedroom with a male classmate on a school trip.

If you don't know what a woman is, you can't be pro-women.

It is as simple as that. You cannot be anti abortion and pro women. You just can't. Abortion is healthcare. It's blows my mind that some people would be happy that they could tell them what a woman is while taking away women's healthcare. My daughter is far more likely to be one of the 1 in 7 Irish women that need an abortion every year than she is to be at risk from a boy in her class declaring he is a girl and insisting he sleeps in a room with the girls.

Having teenagers and seeing how the gender craze is dying out it just isn't something that is even in the top 10 of things that concern me as risks for my children. My teen dd is a talker and my worries are more the inordinate amount of drugs being done by teens. The vaping. The sending nudes as casually as I would send a photo of my dog. The social media use. The underage sexual activity(one of the reasons legalised abortion is so important). The lack of public transport. The lack of facilities for teens. The inability to afford extortionate rent prices limiting where they can go to college. The inability to buy houses meaning they will be living with us until they are 40. The shortage of Drs and long waiting lists. The teacher shortage. The long waiting lists for ASD assessments. CAHMS and their utter incompetence.

As a parent of teens all of these things are the very real problems we are actually facing. Defining woman just isn't an everyday concern and not something I would ever consider basing my vote around.

Apileofballyhoo · 22/11/2024 01:34

I wouldn't vote for AontĂș either because of their anti abortion stance. I have never voted FF but I actually do like MM and if I was in his constituency I might throw him a vote. I feel the element of the FF party I most dislike would actually love to be rid of him.

I don't believe in the self ID, transitioning children, gender on a spectrum nonsense. I voted no/no in the referendum too, for the same reason as MintLion, ambiguous wording. Didn't seem to make any sense as a replacement for what was there already, and seemed to be a big waste of time and money and cheap effort to appeal to some kind of progressive thought or something. I'm not sure what the point of it was.

I'm economically left of centre and housing in this country is a fucking disgrace and I blame FF for that mostly, things got out of control during the Celtic Tiger years, an enormous mess was made and the solution was build more fucking roads for people to commute on. I am no fan of how anything has been handled since either.

There seems to be a laziness in this country of copying what the UK have done/are doing rather than looking further afield. Germany cannot be classed as left wing like say the Scandi countries, but somehow in Germany there is decent housing and health care. The SlĂĄintecare model seems to be just to copy the NHS and that's in shit.

We all want to own our own homes here as renting is so precarious. The solution isn't shit homes to rent, it's decent homes to rent on a long term basis. Nor is the solution massive housing estates with no facilties and no public transport. I live in one with a tiny shop that nobody could afford to do their weekly shop in, or even buy butter or dog food if you have forgotten that, but the walk to a bigger shop is too far for anyone not fit, and if you don't drive the only solution is a taxi.

Keeping a house going requires two salaries/wages but then you need child care which is also very expensive and I wonder about the quality, seeing as it's not a well paid job.

The gap between rich and poor is getting wider too and despite a fairly progressive tax system I feel like there is a wider issue where people at the lower end and lower middle will never be able to buy a home, and there we go back to the precarious renting.

GPs surgeries are expected to take on ever increasing numbers of patients that are paid for by the state, but I dont know if they are actually getting the resources they need. There seems to be vasts amount of money spent on websites and advertising regarding mental health but very few actual services if you do have a problem.

There is a HSE community healthcare facility near me, but it has no staff and is serviced by visiting staff a couple of days a week. Meanwhile I know two newly qualified doctors who headed off to Australia as soon as they qualified, after getting their expensive medical degrees here.

There is just so much stuff being done wrong. The pouches for the mobile phones is just a very good example of the kind of thing, millions being spent in something that in itself isn't a bad idea, but should be so low down on the list of priorities as a luxury item rather than a necessity when there are other cheaper solutions for the problem.

As somebody said on the radio or somewhere recently, all the houses are full of people on holiday using airbnb because they can't get a hotel, and all the hotels are full of people who need to live in houses. That's a huge problem right there.

The children's hospital is another one, the price of it and a doc in Crumlin told me recently they forgot they would need offices for doctors, doctors don't just endlessly walk around the hospital on their rounds, and they haven't built enough office space. That doc can't wait to move though as what's there now is shocking in places.

It's hard to know who to vote for to be honest. I have only spoken about local issues at the door as I honestly don't think any of the parties are really doing any deep long term thinking or planning about anything.

Brownwitch · 22/11/2024 07:54

How would you feel if it was your son who identified as a female? Would you say "You have to be a boy" and deal with all the mental health consequences of that for them?
If there was a male in my daughters school who identified as a female I would be happy for them to use the female bathroom. I do not mean that any male could use the female bathroom. The world has changed since we were kids and the young people today are much more open minded to this.
I think it is very strange that this could be the most important issue for someone in this general election.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 22/11/2024 08:46

MothToAnInferno · 22/11/2024 01:24

It is as simple as that. You cannot be anti abortion and pro women. You just can't. Abortion is healthcare. It's blows my mind that some people would be happy that they could tell them what a woman is while taking away women's healthcare. My daughter is far more likely to be one of the 1 in 7 Irish women that need an abortion every year than she is to be at risk from a boy in her class declaring he is a girl and insisting he sleeps in a room with the girls.

Having teenagers and seeing how the gender craze is dying out it just isn't something that is even in the top 10 of things that concern me as risks for my children. My teen dd is a talker and my worries are more the inordinate amount of drugs being done by teens. The vaping. The sending nudes as casually as I would send a photo of my dog. The social media use. The underage sexual activity(one of the reasons legalised abortion is so important). The lack of public transport. The lack of facilities for teens. The inability to afford extortionate rent prices limiting where they can go to college. The inability to buy houses meaning they will be living with us until they are 40. The shortage of Drs and long waiting lists. The teacher shortage. The long waiting lists for ASD assessments. CAHMS and their utter incompetence.

As a parent of teens all of these things are the very real problems we are actually facing. Defining woman just isn't an everyday concern and not something I would ever consider basing my vote around.

I think you may have misunderstood my point.

Yes, I agree that you cannot be anti-abortion and pro-women. My point is that you cannot be pro-women if you don't know what a woman is.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 22/11/2024 08:51

Apileofballyhoo · 22/11/2024 01:34

I wouldn't vote for AontĂș either because of their anti abortion stance. I have never voted FF but I actually do like MM and if I was in his constituency I might throw him a vote. I feel the element of the FF party I most dislike would actually love to be rid of him.

I don't believe in the self ID, transitioning children, gender on a spectrum nonsense. I voted no/no in the referendum too, for the same reason as MintLion, ambiguous wording. Didn't seem to make any sense as a replacement for what was there already, and seemed to be a big waste of time and money and cheap effort to appeal to some kind of progressive thought or something. I'm not sure what the point of it was.

I'm economically left of centre and housing in this country is a fucking disgrace and I blame FF for that mostly, things got out of control during the Celtic Tiger years, an enormous mess was made and the solution was build more fucking roads for people to commute on. I am no fan of how anything has been handled since either.

There seems to be a laziness in this country of copying what the UK have done/are doing rather than looking further afield. Germany cannot be classed as left wing like say the Scandi countries, but somehow in Germany there is decent housing and health care. The SlĂĄintecare model seems to be just to copy the NHS and that's in shit.

We all want to own our own homes here as renting is so precarious. The solution isn't shit homes to rent, it's decent homes to rent on a long term basis. Nor is the solution massive housing estates with no facilties and no public transport. I live in one with a tiny shop that nobody could afford to do their weekly shop in, or even buy butter or dog food if you have forgotten that, but the walk to a bigger shop is too far for anyone not fit, and if you don't drive the only solution is a taxi.

Keeping a house going requires two salaries/wages but then you need child care which is also very expensive and I wonder about the quality, seeing as it's not a well paid job.

The gap between rich and poor is getting wider too and despite a fairly progressive tax system I feel like there is a wider issue where people at the lower end and lower middle will never be able to buy a home, and there we go back to the precarious renting.

GPs surgeries are expected to take on ever increasing numbers of patients that are paid for by the state, but I dont know if they are actually getting the resources they need. There seems to be vasts amount of money spent on websites and advertising regarding mental health but very few actual services if you do have a problem.

There is a HSE community healthcare facility near me, but it has no staff and is serviced by visiting staff a couple of days a week. Meanwhile I know two newly qualified doctors who headed off to Australia as soon as they qualified, after getting their expensive medical degrees here.

There is just so much stuff being done wrong. The pouches for the mobile phones is just a very good example of the kind of thing, millions being spent in something that in itself isn't a bad idea, but should be so low down on the list of priorities as a luxury item rather than a necessity when there are other cheaper solutions for the problem.

As somebody said on the radio or somewhere recently, all the houses are full of people on holiday using airbnb because they can't get a hotel, and all the hotels are full of people who need to live in houses. That's a huge problem right there.

The children's hospital is another one, the price of it and a doc in Crumlin told me recently they forgot they would need offices for doctors, doctors don't just endlessly walk around the hospital on their rounds, and they haven't built enough office space. That doc can't wait to move though as what's there now is shocking in places.

It's hard to know who to vote for to be honest. I have only spoken about local issues at the door as I honestly don't think any of the parties are really doing any deep long term thinking or planning about anything.

You sound like you are in exactly the same quandary as me. My views are very similar to yours and I have no idea who to vote for.

LifeInAHamsterWheel · 22/11/2024 09:00

I know it isn't really the point of this thread, but if my (17yr old DS) told me he identified as a woman then yes, his mental health would clearly be in crisis and I'd do anything to help with the consequences of that. But I wouldn't go along with the delusion. It is possible to be kind and supportive and get help for someone without affirming something that they are clearly delusional about. The same way if my son was anorexic I wouldn't help him to lose more weight! There is huge evidence to show that young people who present with gender dysphoria should not have 'affirming' care but rather be helped work through their feelings because almost always they grow out of it (check out the recent 'Cass Report')

You say "I do not mean that any male could use the female bathroom" - but unfortunately the law we brought in here in 2018 means that ANY MALE can! This is the problem with Self ID. Any man can fill in a form, pay his (paltry) fee and have his legal sex changed here. He doesn't have to have undergone any medical transformation (putting aside the fact that there is literally no medical transformation that can actually change a person's sex) he doesn't have to have taken a single cross sex hormone, or even have had any pyschological evaluation by any doctor! One form, one fee and Bob is no longer your uncle. So, how do we stop the men in our spaces, if they say they 'identify' as a woman. Do we ask to see their newly acquired ID? Prove they have filled in that form and paid their fee? Does that make them a woman?? Because unfortunately under Irish law it does. There's plenty of discussion on this issue on the "Feminism: Sex and gender discussions" board on here, and a more specific Irish discussion on the Craicnet board. It's worth having a read and getting familiar with the law, how it works and the reprecussions for women and children in Ireland, which in my opinion are horrifying.

I agree it's not a voting issue for many, I think because many people are unaware of the law and the problems with it. And of course the issues of healthcare, housing, immigration, education etc. are hugely important too.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 22/11/2024 09:04

Brownwitch · 22/11/2024 07:54

How would you feel if it was your son who identified as a female? Would you say "You have to be a boy" and deal with all the mental health consequences of that for them?
If there was a male in my daughters school who identified as a female I would be happy for them to use the female bathroom. I do not mean that any male could use the female bathroom. The world has changed since we were kids and the young people today are much more open minded to this.
I think it is very strange that this could be the most important issue for someone in this general election.

You haven't answered my question as to how you define the word woman.

If I had a son who identified as a girl, I would support him as best I could. So obviously he could dress and present how he wished. I would also help him to explore the reasons he felt this way. I think for some people it is a rejection of the rigid gender stereotypes that have become more prevalent over the last few decades and I fully support rejecting them.

However, I would also ensure that he knows he can't change his sex and that there are certain areas/issues where sex matters and as a male he needs to be conscious of females rights to dignity and safety and so should not use the female facilities.

Back to your daughter - how can you tell the difference between "any male" using the bathrooms and a male identifying as female using the bathrooms? Will they have to pass a test of some kind? Will they have to dress in a way that "proves" they are trans or will you just accept their word for it. I recently came across a trans man at work who looked pretty identical to many of the other female students. Short hair, hoodie, jeans, no make-up. Very female looking. I took the students word for it.

Alibababandthe40sheets · 22/11/2024 09:09

Peadar Toibin knows what a woman is so that he can deny her healthcare. I would not vote for AontĂș if it was the last political party in the planet. Issues that could affect my daughters are much more important than issues that we have literally not a shred of control over like world war 3.

If Putin continues on his expected course of empire building no Irish politicians will have any impact on that.

Neutrality only worked as a strategy when we were a country barely developed and barely recovered from famine. Literally no country was remotely interested in us in WW2. Now that we are a wealthy western country having adopted western values if we get attacked we will have to respond the same as every other country. We won’t be starting it but that doesn’t mean we won’t be dragged in. No politician will control if we get attacked. Look at Belarus who went with appeasement and now are likely to be annexed.