Gender Critical in Ireland Part 4

[MaeveofConnaught]

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/craicnet/4777231-gender-critical-in-ireland-part-3?page=40&reply=139277391
Last thread was full so starting a new one.

I had a canvasser at my door this morning on behalf of a local (female) politician. I told her my voting issue would be centred around women's rights. She was all "oh well obviously with XX you know you've immediately got that covered!" I said well I'd need to know her stance on the issue of trans ideology, like does she believe a man who identifies as a woman actually IS a woman? Or is she going to push to have our ridiculous Self ID law repealed? She didn't know what to say. She stuttered "oh that hasn't ever come up I'd have to go back and check with her on that" I said do please, I already emailed her but never got a response. She scribbled down my house number but didn't ask my name or email address and scurried off.
This will be repeated with every canvasser that comes to my door from now until election time.

I think the standard is that the other person has to believe you intend to do these things, so if I say "I'm going to rape Ms. X" its Ms. X that has to believe that the threat will be carried out and cause her fear not whether I intend to carry out the threat or am capable of it. I really don't understand how the jury came to the conclusion that they did because the women were terrified and I fully believe if BK had the opportunity the threats would be acted upon.

Can you imagine what BK is going to get up to now with this acquittal, in testimony already admitting “I have threatened to sexually assault males since these incidents.”

It is a terrifying country we are finding ourselves as women and girls living in daily.

It feels like violence against W&G's is acceptable once it doesn't result in murder.

Threats of rape and numerous incidents of rapes found not guilty

Even when pleading or found guilty, sentences are generally speaking pathetic

Physical violence, boasted about on SM with pride, pathetic sentence.

All of this with a female Justice Minister who has regularly claimed violence against women & girls is a top priority for her.

And the one thing with the potential to deter some, not all, is minimum sentence not rising the max while leaving the option the suspend the entire sentence.

I don’t understand this result, genuinely baffled.
Not sure how it works? Is it possible to appeal?

'You been acquitted by a Limerick jury and you may now leave the Dock without any other stain on your character. ' - Judge Richard Adams.

Exactly. Well done. As in previous elections ask them "What is a woman"? They are afraid to answer due to the intimidating ring doorbells but the silence speaks volumes!

I put this on the other thread but will put here too. It's from the court reports that The Countess were taking. I have no words.

After the day’s evidence, Counsel for the Defense applied to have the charge lessened because it could be argued that rape would not in itself constitute serious harm. Maybe with an implement, depending on how this was used, it might be. The judge asked him if he was really asking him to accept that rape was not serious harm? It was agreed that threatening to threaten rape so you cannot have children would constitute serious harm.

This is awful. I know council for defence has to represent their client but how can they live with themselves?

Well done LifeInAHamsterWheel!
Let's keep the pressure on. I've tackled few canvassers and found them much more open to 'sex should mean biological sex' than in previous years.

My approach has changed too, I've much much more assertive than I used to be in previous years about restoring biological women's rights in equality legislation and 'just get rid of the GRA'. The many successful court cases brought by GC women in the UK add to a feeling that we are not just lone voices.

I try to sound so reasonable and amiable that they are going to have to pick a fight with me if they disagree, which isn't what they are supposed to do when looking for votes!

I also tell them that they now can't say 'Gender issues never come up on the doorstep, because it just has'

I love to ask the question how many trans women were incarcerated in Magdalene laundries and or M&B homes for the crime of being a woman and the potential consequences of same.

The stuttering is a sight to behold, one candidate brings their mother with them who tries to do the talking for them.

Really not a good look.

Hi everyone, long time lurker on these threads. I just received the following from my daughter's primary school (Dublin Educate Together):

We are one of 20 primary schools that have been selected to take part in LGBTQ+
Inclusive Primary Schools Pilot run by Belong To. Built around the Department of
Education’s four key areas of Wellbeing Promotion, this pilot initiative looks at
LGBTQ+ inclusion from the perspective of Culture & Environment, Curriculum Teaching & Learning), Policy & Planning and Relationships and Partnerships.

Does anyone have any information on this? Or any experience from other schools? I have asked the school for more detail on what is involved and whether parents will be able to review any teaching materials but expecting to be fobbed off.

I don't know much about this current initiative but I expect BeLongTo will, by their nature, put the needs of those they represent, before anyone else so I would be wary.

The Countess might be able to help you on this or direct you to a group that are knowledgeable.

I'd be worried to be honest. BeLonG To are like the Irish equivalent of Mermaids & Stonewall rolled into one. Definitely push for more info from the school. Good luck.

This is what I suspected.

As LifeInAHamsterWheel said, BelongTo is problematic, OrionNebula.

It probably started out life as a genuine support group for young lesbians and gays at a time when it was really needed.
But like so many L&G groups, it has morphed into a trans group, the 'T' in LGBT has taken over.

I advise you to look at their website, especially
Coming-Out-As-Trans-BeLonG-To-Youth-Services-1.pdf
which includes references to breast-binding and 'tucking' which are completely at odds with the promotion of body positivity in young people. This is just one example - there are lots of questionable ideas and terminology.

Coming out as Lesbian or Gay doesn't even get its own section - it's all about coming out as LBGTQ+. And they define L or G as being attracted to the same gender, whereas it should be sex. This isn't a technicality, gay people are attracted to people of their own sex, not people of the opposite sex who 'identify as' a man, or a woman.

Coming-Out-YP-2023-SCREEN.pdf
They provide no specific support to young lesbians, their cringingly-named 'Ladybirds' group is open to 'gals' and their 'non-binary pals'. In other words, anybody at all.

Like TENI [Transgender Equality Network Ireland] BelongTo has achieved an incredible level of power and influence in public life, they are regarded as some sort of expert group called into give advice and guidance, for instance to your daughter's school. Why should they? They are not neutral or objective. They are based on a belief system, not on scientific fact.
I'm sure an Educate Together school would not welcome 'experts' from a religious belief system running a Wellbeing project for their pupils, or if they did, they would be sure to have a balancing group presenting a non-religious or non-sectarian viewpoint to the students.

Finally [sorry to go on and on...!] if you and other parents question/object to BelongTo taking this role in your daughter's school, brace yourselves for being accused of being right-wing transphobic bigots.
Unfortunately, there are right-wing bigots who disagree with trans ideology, but for different reasons.

I hope you don't mind me suggesting that if you decide to tackle the school about BelongTo, try not to rise to the accusations of being anti-trans, just keep pointing out that it has nothing to do with right-wing politics or transphobia, it's to do with maintaining standards of objectivity and fact in your children's education.

Such a good post @MarieDeGournay I might steal some of it if I need to discuss the issue in my own DC school. Thank you.

Thank you @MarieDeGournay that's a really useful post and good advice.

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but was wondering if anyone had read this article from the Journal.ie 2 days ago. It's written by Eoghan Cleary who is one of the authors of a junior cycle SPHE textbook. He outlines his beliefs in gender ideology. He is a believer that it is definitely NOT an 'ideology' as it is firmly rooted in biological facts..

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/sphe-ireland-6529750-Nov2024/

Here is a statement that he makes in the article as an example;

"biology now also explains that sometimes people are born with the chromosomes and genitals of one sex but know that they are transgender, meaning they have an internal (neurobiologically-influenced) gender identity that aligns with the opposite sex — or even, occasionally, with neither gender or with no gender at all. None of us get to choose our sex or our gender identity or whether one aligns with the other. It is not ideological; it’s biological

Did I miss something? I really don't think that biology has explained this according to this fella's beliefs. He goes on a rant about hate groups and religious ideologues opposing his views but seems have a complete lack of self awareness around his own extreme and anti-scientific views and feels fully entitled to peddle his views on school children

No, I stopped reading The Journal some years ago @Demented101 because they are very much TWAW amongst other things 🙄

That is just awful and not surprising, unfortunately. Throwing in words like "neurobiologically-influenced" makes it all sound very kosher to the average Joe who knows nothing about the topic and happily gets his news from The Journal every day.

It is literally like we are taking part in a live enactment of The Emperor's New Clothes.

He also says "Transgender is what the T in LGBT has stood for since the acronym was first coined back in 1988, almost 40 years ago" Is that right? I don't recall ever hearing the T (nevermind the QIA+) over the last 40 years.

He also says "the problem for these small-but-loud groups of people is that the science and fact-based modern education of sex and sexuality does not fit with their archaic, repressive and discriminatory religious ideology." This drives me mad. I am not religious at all. Or repressed!

FFS I had to stop reading as it was giving me rage.

Adding the T is definitely a more recent thing in terms of it being mainstream. Maybe the campaign started 40 years ago but I don't think anyone would have been aware of it. Not sure really if the lgb were fully aware of what was being glued onto them..

You're right, Demented101, the '40 years' claim is wrong wrong wrong. It doesn't take much research - or just asking lesbians and gays who were around in the 1980s - to find out that transgender was not a thing, in fact it wasn't even a word - 'transvestite' yes, transgender no.
But then, that's part of the trans modus operandi - keep making outrageously and demonstrably untrue statements, and a percentage of suckers sorry, people will believe them. Unfortunately, a lot of those people are in positions of power and influence, and the demonstrably untrue stuff gets set in stone.

And yes, you're right again: nobody ever asked us lesbians and gays if we actually wanted TQ++++ tacked on to L&G - in fact I remember a friend even grumbling about the 'B' for bisexual, saying, mischievously 'Well if they're straight half the time, why do we have to have them?' - but bisexuality is about actual sexuality, which transgenderism isn't, so it doesn't belong with LGB at all, and is doing untold damage to LGB people's standing in society.
The phrase 'homophobia and transphobia' are lumped together, but they are different things, and should be separated.

The TQ bit acts against the LGB bit by influencing young lesbians and gays into thinking that they must be trans if they feel different - especially young women, who are over-represented in the young people presenting for 'gender' care at places like the former, much-criticised Tavistock Clinic.
And lesbians in particular are frozen out of the LGBTQ++++ world, even forbidden to take part in Pride parades etc.,
So sometimes the trans movement is itself homophobic, as well as misogynistic.

It's a different issue, a different cohort of people, and there's even a little scissors emoji thing about it now: LGB✂TQ.

Eoghan Cleary keeps urging his readers to Google the information. Somebody should tell him you need to be careful with Google.

He takes a quote from an article entitled “Neurobiology of gender identity and sexual orientation” published in the Journal of Neuroendocrinology and expands on it to say

‘Our ‘gender identity’, on the other hand, is our internal sense of who we are. It is not an ideology; it’s science. You can Google it. The research in this area is expanding all the time and although still not exhaustively comprehensive, it does conclude that
“existing empirical evidence makes it clear that there is a significant biological contribution to the development of an individual’s sexual identity and sexual orientation.”’ ( the latter part is from the J Neuroendocrinology).

But - that quote does not mention gender identity? It’s about sexual orientation.

“Still not exhaustively comprehensive” is a huge understatement, to put it mildly.

The article itself actually says -

“Evidence of a genetic contribution to transsexuality is very limited.”

and

“The evidence that prenatal hormones affect the development of gender identity is stronger but far from proven.”
(The authors go on to quote the case of a boy raised as a girl due to a botched circumcision but who actually identified as a boy. Hmm.)

Anyway, the scientific evidence for gender identity being biological is very limited and open to interpretation. Animal models can’t be used.

I hate this religious fundamentalist absolute nonsense too!!

Here's more proof that we have to separate LGB from TQ+++.
Harassed and called paedophiles: Librarians describe being targeted by anti-LGBT+ groups
It's in the notoriously TWAW journal.ie, but referring to research carried out by UCD.

I condemn any use of violence, and nothing justifies forcing your way into a library and removing and destroying books, regardless of what the books say. No ifs, no buts. As a form of protest, it has clearly achieved absolutely nothing except this kind of reaction.

There is widespread acceptance of LGB rights in Ireland, not ignoring ongoing homophobia of course, but the marriage equality referendum showed that a big majority were in favour of 'cothrom na Féinne', fairness for all, gay or straight.

But there is not a widespread acceptance of trans activism, extreme gender ideology, etc., and presumably that is what the library protestors were objecting to - drag story time, books promoting trandsgenderism to children, etc.
So it is the TQ++, not the LGB, that they are protesting against.

Well... I hope so. I do wonder about the political analysis of people who think it's acceptable to force your way into a library and remove and destroy books - are they making a clear distinction between L&G people, and trans people, drag queens, etc? Or are the protesters also lumping us all into one group, just as the journal.ie and UCD do? Is there in fact an element of homophobia in these protests?
LBG✂TQ is needed to clarify the situation on all sides.

I complete agree @MarieDeGournay I think as a society the Irish are largely very accepting of gay people and while there'll always be homophobia on some level (and racism, and sexism etc) I think for the most part it's now a non-issue. The trans ideology however...