Gaelscoil - when do they catch up in English writing

[Mumof3onetwothree]

Wondering do children who have attended a Gaelscoil catch up in written English without additional help - or do they ever. I have heard a lot of stories of people who went to gaelscoileanna being very behind in English once they got to secondary school and this seems to regarded as an acceptable trade off for having good Irish.
My child is finishing second class and is very behind their peers at English speaking schools. They even struggle with some spoken English grammer and we are an English speaking household. Their reading is very average but I have spent time every single evening for years doing English reading. My child can barely spell a word in either Irish or English.

It is great having good spoken Irish but in reality secondary school will be through English as there isn't an Irish secondary option nearby and I'm really concerned that not being able to write properly or quickly will make life a massive struggle in English and other subjects like history and geography.
I hear of local Gaelscoil parents during an hour of extra work with their children each day to improve their English, hiring tutors etc. I really think this shouldn't be necessary at primary level.

What have the school said?
Several children have moved into my son's school from a local Irish speaking school and all with similar complaints to you of being really far behind. One or two had SEN which this particular gaelscoil was apparently really really bad at helping with. My son has asd and couldn't recognise any phonics in senior infants so we moved him to another school as his old school while great didn't have good enough SEN provision. We put him into an asd class and he is thriving, after two years in the new school they believe in another year he will be at the same level as his peers. So personally I'd have a good honest chat with the school and either the teaching is terrible or your son might need some resource hours. Don't accept it as just one of those things while your son falls further behind.

They won't tell me. They say it's fine, a bit careless, not a problem with the academics. I don't trust them based on other parents experiences in the school.
This is the problem. They don't want people leaving unless things are really bad. I feel the idealism about getting as many people as possible to speak Irish is more important to them than the individual child.
Did you get any sense of that from the parents of the children that moved to your school.
I can't really tell what the issue is with my child and I haven't got anywhere talking to the school despite standardised scores being a bit low.

The fact that they won't speak to you speaks volumes in itself. The thing is now you don't actually know if your son is behind and will catch up or if he really does need extra help. I absolutely wouldn't be paying privately for help without speaking to the school and finding out what's causing his problems. I know with the parents that moved to my sons school some children were really behind and it took two or three years or more for it be really brought to light as they were fobbed off. One child had more significant Sen and the parents are very upset and angry. It was actually being discussed by the parents while we were all waiting to see the teacher at the parent teacher meeting. The parents of the child was telling us the story. Obviously some had no issues and they only moved schools as their siblings moved. I'm sure some others on here with positive experiences of gaelscoil can tell you if your situation is normal or not

I've heard it takes until about 4th class before English reading catches up. Not sure how accurate that is but it might be something to discuss with teachers. It may not be fair to compare the reading levels of the various types of school at this stage? I'm not certain, worth investigating though.

The advantages of bilingualism are well studied so it might be worth sticking with it. It does depend on how good the individual schools in your area are though. And I think if a child is academically weak or dyslexic then it must be more challenging to study in another language . The school needs to be very on the ball to address these challenges and not all of them are.

My own DC had huge issues with phonics that weren't properly addressed in school. DC was later identified as quite severely dyslexic but damage had been done by then. That was actually in an English medium school not a Gaelscoil. Possibly the challenges may be even more acute in a Gaelsoil for some children like my DC? I can imagine DC would have had more issues speaking and interacting with other children in a Gaelscoil playground for example.
Basically I think a lot depends on the individual school and the individual child.

Thanks so much for your reply. I don't think I'll get any further with school. I guess that's why I'm asking on mumsnet! I just don't know who to ask as so many people rave about gaelscoileanna and they are hard to get into. It's more the writing I am worried about. Literally cannot spell a thing. The school don't give spellings for homework so maybe that's the problem but it seems very unusual that a 9 year old can't write. And I don't know how to teach writing.

Thanks so much yes I've heard several stories like this about people leaving our school. It's upsetting to hear about. I just don't know what's going on with my kid, obviously it's a big deal to move schools and it is good to have Irish if it works for the child. Just feel like I don't know who to ask as people just think we are so lucky to be in a gaelscoil.

I moved my child at end of junior infants . It was just too hard the irish but my main issue was he hadn't a clue how to read at the end of J I and they didn't care. I asked about repeating JI as he was so bad and they said that needs to be ok d by the dept. Ds was only young so straight to the town english school. Straight back into JI again he is now in secondary school getting 91% in irish. Not every child in gael s coils gets A in the LC. The homework was also hard and I could see poor DS and us having harder pms after work trying to help and struggling.
GS are in some areas struggling for numbers so aren't very happy when you leave and not a good look either in a small place .

there Is research that shows that they catch up by 4th and by 6th have higher standardised test scores on average than English speaking schools.

If he can’t spell in English or Irish and his standardised test scores are average in reading (which is totally fine - average is good). Then the difference could show a problem. Could you set up a meeting with the school? Note the discrepancy and ask for options? Schools have a dyslexia screening test they can use.

I think gaelscoil are great, it’s so beneficial learning through a second language mainly because it is more challenging but when an additional need comes into play it makes it more difficult. And they seem to recognize difficulties later.

My child can barely spell a word in either Irish or English.

I'm English, so don't really have a right to comment, other than we picked up DD's dyslexia at about the same age because she was otherwise bright, but could not spell at all. Hopeless. We would start practicing the ten words she was given at the start of each week, and each evening we would think she had mastered it, but would have to start again the next day.

If that might be the problem you might consider a private dyslexia test. Hugely expensive, but knowing that DD was intelligent but had a specific problem more than paid for itself over the years. (For her as well. There was a point when the woman said to this seven year old that she must have been working very hard to be doing as well as she had been doing, and you could physically see her relief.)

Thanks so much for this....yes it's just so hard to know as they've never had spellings for homework really. They seem to be using progressive teaching methods but I don't really know what that means!!

It depends on the class. If in the lower classes with enough support they may be OK but it's not a guarantee. A child moved over to my sons English speaking school & still struggled massively to catch up. If I were in your position I would explore English speaking alternatives, it's no advantage to have them struggling in either language unfortunately regardless of how lucky you feel to be in a Gaelscoil (it's your child who's attending, not you! Does your child feel lucky or would he/she prefer to be in an English speaking school?

Anecdotally (and based on no evidence just my experience) I would say part of the reason for the higher scores in 6th class on average is that children with dyslexia and other specific learning disabilities (dyscalculia/ spelling issues)tend to move schools in the middle classes . I teach in a school near a Gaelscoil and for the last few years we have had at least one pupil transfer in in 3rd class.
This would skew the results as a lot of these children tend to have lower STEN scores

OP if you feel your child has significant struggles in literacy ask the school if they have inhouse dyslexia screening. The SET will be able to administer a test that will give at risk factors which could lead to a diagnosis by a psychologist if needed

Agree wholeheartedly with @Martymcfly24 in regards to the dyslexia screening but I would explore the other avenue of changing to an English speaking school to make life as easy as possible for your child. The Irish is only going to get harder & your little one will fall further behind.

Thanks so much for these new replies. They don't think she has significant problems with literacy. However from what I can tell she can't write .... But I don't know if it is because she hasn't been taught or if there's a problem. Gaelscoil stem scores are definitely higher because there are less children with needs and also the parents are doing a lot of extra work at home. The children love their school teachers and friends. It's hard for me to change schools. If it was easy I probably would but it will involve moving one child at a time, probably mid year whenever spaces come up and having a difficult couple of years doing collections at two different schools. And if it turned out there was no learning difficulty and she just needed more time it would seem like a bad decision...

I agree with this. My 2 are in gaelcholaiste now but went to a gaelscoil. It has been fantastic for them. I can't say that I relate to the lack of English spellings or the difficulties reading in English though, both of mine have always pretty good there with no input from me. 2nd class feels like a long time ago now but I know they had English and Irish spellings, English and Irish reading for homework.

I would say that it suits some children more than others though, some kids did move to other schools along the way through primary so obviously it didn't suit them. One of mine has gotten such a love of languages through going to a gaelscoil, he did really well in the linguistics Olympiad this year and wants to study irish in university. My dd although she is less academically inclined always gets complimented on her large vocab(english) and everyone assumes she is a voracious reader because of her level of English writing but she hates reading and will only do it if she has to. There has definitely been no ill effects on their English levels through attending gaelscoil/gaelcholaiste.

If I were in your shoes and I had concerns that there was learning difficulty there I would probably try and get a private assessment for dyslexia to try and figure out what is going on. Finding out whether there is something more at play or if it is just not a great school could help. My experience of Irish language schools has been really positive though so that will colour my view of it, we might have just gotten lucky but the small class sizes, the community vibe, the confidence that being bilingual has given them has really shone through as they have gotten older. I don't know if it is relevant but ds has autism and they have been really great with him along the way, I know there seems to be this idea that Irish language schools and additional needs don't mix but it hasn't been our experience.

I know there seems to be this idea that Irish language schools and additional needs don't mix but it hasn't been our experience.

It could depend on the additional need I'd say. My DS is autistic and also has dyslexia and he struggled with the latter even in an English speaking school. Reading was and is a problem. He got an exemption in Irish. He is very bright but the dyslexia definitely has had an impact.
However, he has several friends who are also autistic but who had no such difficulty with dyslexia and they were top of the class in English and Irish.
So it very much depends on the child and how good a fit the school is imho.

Thanks interesting to hear your experience. Yes our school has huge classes... over 30 and the teachers are all really new and inexperienced and there is a high staff turnover. Very little individual attention. They don't do spellings either apparently it's a new way of doing things but I do feel some children need the practice of learning spellings off by heart more than others.
A dyslexia test costs a lot and I can't tell if it is other issues that are at play. And I don't really know how others in the class are getting on, some are doing well but I don't know how much help they are getting at home.

Thanks yes I've noticed that the autistic children in the main stream classes do very well as they are bright. It seems to suit the academic and gifted children well. I know of children with dyslexia who have had to move and of others that are really struggling. I don't think the teachers have a lot of experience with dyslexia and they aren't taught to read with phonics really. Just run the finger under the words and either they pick it up or they don't.

I don't think the teachers have a lot of experience with dyslexia and they aren't taught to read with phonics really. Just run the finger under the words and either they pick it up or they don't.

Phonics didn't actually work at all for my dyslexic DC@Mumof3onetwothree. It was the wrong approach for him. Other children with dyslexia might find differently. But for DC the phonics approach to learning to read was a terrible fit.

Oh thats interesting I hadn't realised that the phonics system doesn't work for everyone

@Mumof3onetwothree you mentioned the school your little one attends doesn't use phonics, what reading programme do they use instead? I was under the impression the majority of schools now use some sort of phonics programme now? It's interesting you mentioned they are leading to read with their finger by inexperienced teachers. That is a very old fashioned method of learning that was widely replaced years ago by the department of education.

Have you asked why they are not teaching phonics. That is highly unusual.

" don't think the teachers have a lot of experience with dyslexia and they aren't taught to read with phonics really. Just run the finger under the words and either they pick it up or they don't."

Are you genuinely happy with this school & the quality teaching your little one is getting? Is their better schools in the area that might fit your child better? Are they receiving additional support? From what you describe they should be getting resource hours with an experienced sna.

A friend of mine had three kids in an Irish speaking school. The older two were fine but she was very worried about the youngest child. Reading and spelling were very poor.

My friend’s husband wasn’t happy about attending the gaelsvoil and the compromise was they would definitely move to an English secondary, which they did. Once the older children left primary, she moved the youngest to a different primary.

Someone said that research has showed they score higher in 6th but the results are skewed because they don’t cater for SEN and by 6th it’s too late to do anything surely?

i think cater for is the wrong word, they get the same resources as other schools (it is based on need) but lots of SEN kids do seem to move.

although this may shew the stem scores, there is loads of international and Irish research showing the long term cognitive and academic benefits of learning through another language.

I’m not trying to say Gaelscoils are great - they may be a little behind in their English at that point. But I’d stop trying to blame the Irish and look at the school or the child.

It’s highly unorthodox to be learning to read without using phonics? This is not a “progressive teaching method” And a high staff turnover is fairly unusual.

Gaelscoileanna tend to be old fashioned. Parents who went to a gaelscoil themselves know this already and the children that go to them tend to be more academic so lots of them cope. And Irish is of great importance to those families so they keep going with it. That's the system. Many parents who didn't go to a gaelscoil themselves have queried it and haven't got anywhere...we were naive about the school. We did ask the questions before enrolment but were told things that were different to the reality. But our children are in it now and they really don't want to change school and as I said earlier it's a challenge to secure school places elsewhere. Yes parents from English speaking schools think its shocking etc but that's the way it is and the system won't change any time soon.
And if there is no learning difficulty perhaps it is a case that they just catch up later, that's why I'm wondering what the level of English reading and writing is normally at in a gaelscoil...because if it's a case of catching up a bit later then moving school is a massive upheaval for no reason...

It's the not doing spellings that seems to be 'progressive'.
High staff turnover is common in Dublin due to housing crisis. Lots of local schools are struggling to retain teachers.