Gaelscoil - when do they catch up in English writing

[Mumof3onetwothree]

Wondering do children who have attended a Gaelscoil catch up in written English without additional help - or do they ever. I have heard a lot of stories of people who went to gaelscoileanna being very behind in English once they got to secondary school and this seems to regarded as an acceptable trade off for having good Irish.
My child is finishing second class and is very behind their peers at English speaking schools. They even struggle with some spoken English grammer and we are an English speaking household. Their reading is very average but I have spent time every single evening for years doing English reading. My child can barely spell a word in either Irish or English.

It is great having good spoken Irish but in reality secondary school will be through English as there isn't an Irish secondary option nearby and I'm really concerned that not being able to write properly or quickly will make life a massive struggle in English and other subjects like history and geography.
I hear of local Gaelscoil parents during an hour of extra work with their children each day to improve their English, hiring tutors etc. I really think this shouldn't be necessary at primary level.

If the teachers are young & inexperienced surely they would be using the latest methods of teaching. Those teachers would have been using phonics themselves going to school.
It's highly unusual that a school is using a method of teaching that was in place years ago especially when the national curriculum which all schools follow have a very robust phonics programme in place.
I know you think Gaelscoils are old fashioned I actually would have thought they were quit the opposite. They have to follow the national curriculum.

Ok I didn't realise it was different in other gaelscoileanna. No jolly phonics or anything like that in ours. Total immersion Irish for the infant years. Then English readers to do with parents but no English phonics programme from what I could see.

https://www.curriculumonline.ie/primary/curriculum-areas/primary-language/reading/

Here is the curriculum used in all Irish schools (English speaking & Gaelscoils) covering language & reading . If you click on the teacher materials there is a whole section on phonological awareness so phonics absolutely have to be covered as all schools need to follow this framework from the Department of Education. If this is not happening I would have serious concerns Scott the standard of education my child is receiving.
Is your little one getting resource hours with an sna?

I have no experience of Gaelscoileanna but obviously the phonics of the English language are different from the phonics of the Irish language. Could this account for some of the differences in teaching?

I mean, Jolly phonics doesn't work in Irish. Letters and letter combinations make different sounds in different languages.

Thanks they teach the sounds of the Irish alphabet. But I've never seen any phonics other than the individual letters.
My child can read to an average level but it's really the English writing that I'm concerned about.

Thanks so much for that link. Not eligible for resource hours unfortunately. They don't think there is a problem.

My niece and nephew go to Gael scoil and the eldest us in rang 4 and doing more English, the youngest is rang 2 and mostly Irish. But my sister reads English books at home, probably more so than I did with my kids who went to English speaking school but there was a difference until my nephew went to rang3 and they focused on more English. Their school is fantastic and no issues with their English learning and I've older cousins who went there and there was no issues crossing over in secondary. The issue may be the school but they should be very open about the curriculum, my sister was able to tell me what happens all the way through and hue to support. The funny thing is I'm the Irish speaker not her so I help them with homework sometimes and they are actually reading at a higher level books in Irish than other kids do in English at that age

You're welcome, that's a shame as a few weeks with a good sna could make all the difference. If you are certain there is nothing else at play I would really try & push the school for extra help.
But in the meantime I would pay for an assessment to rule out dyslexia. If your child however is dyslexic & you have the proof it would be a massive tool in pushing & advocating in getting your child the help they need & deserve. Don't blame the school or the Irish, do everything possible to get those resources. Also if your child has dyslexia/other additional needs & cannot continue learning through the medium of Irish English speaking schools should be able to prioritise them especially in the older classes. I wouldn't be taking no for an answer, you need to advocate & fight for your child to ensure they are getting the best education possible.

You're welcome, that's a shame as a few weeks with a good sna could make all the difference.

I don't think it's the SNAs that do resource teaching? They need to be qualified teachers to teach, whether in a classroom or not.

There is an Irish version of the jolly phonics programme with songs and actions. The name escapes me now.

At least their reading is fine. But it sounds strange that they didn’t learn phonics. Did they get a below average mark on their sten test for English?

I always assumed the snas did the resource hours? Either way if @Mumof3onetwothree little one got resource hours based on their writing it could make the world of difference to their learning & self esteem.

All anecdotal but about 10 of my younger cousins have gone to Gael Scoil. The ones that are old enough to have been to college now, 1 is a secondary teacher (not in Irish). The others have studied things like accountancy, commerce and drama at college. The others are still in school, I think they prob have a normal range of 'book' intelligence range you'd expect to see in a group.

I did also think dyslexia when you posted. I went to 'regular' primary school but my dyslexia wasn't pricked up until 1st year in secondary.

Thanks yes they did do songs with a character for the individual letters eg 'a' 'b' 'c' but it was more like the letter land system that used to be used in Irish schools ... I've never seen anything like for example the English phonics like 'ai' or 'ou' 'igh' and so on.

Thanks...I wonder if anyone at home spoke Irish to them...we don't have good Irish so that's a bit of a disadvantage too.
Yes it does seem like other children from gaelscoileanna would have picked up writing by now ...

Thanks this is interesting as the next class will be rang 3. We've done lots of extra English reading at home with them. It does seem to be the norm to have to put in extra hours of English reading at home .

My niece and nephew went to an Irish speaking primary school. They seem to be on track with English and only spoke English at home. They're quite far ahead of their peers in a third language (French and Italian respectively).

SNA' s only support children with primary care needs (medical, mobility, emotional and behavioural) so generally complex needs. A SENO will not grant access for educational needs.
The old system of eligibility for Resource Hours is gone and there is a lot more flexibility. If your child's STEN is under a certain percentile they should receive support . Or if there is a large mismatch between Maths and English STENs' this would indicate a specific issue.However this can be in many forms withdrawal, in class support or if there is a large group in the class team teaching can be the most effective.
Op did your child do the Drumcondra Spelling Standardised Test?

@Solomama12
It's SETs (Special Education Teachers) who do the extra educational support. They're qualified teachers, some will have done courses in special ed too. As pp said SNAs are there to cover the additional primary care needs some children have.

Thanks no the school only did the reading drumcondra. STEN results weren't great but not low enough to make the cut off for learning support.

Yeah you absolutely have to put the effort in at home as the extra exposure isn't there at school. In the early years they need to be fully immersed in irish

That's a pity because they are very informative. As a whole school we noticed that children on average were down one or two STEN from English to spelling so we are prioritising spelling for the next few years

An issue spelling is the amount of time given to phonemic awareness in Junior Infants (this would be rhyme , breaking up words into syllables etc) These skills are very important to future spellers and it needs to be really started before phonics. They may have missed this due to an immersion education in Junior Infants

In September I would request the school as assess your child for spelling. Words their Way have a very simple assessment. We have referred children to NEPs who have received reports citing a spelling difficulty and the associated supports but not Dyslexia so it can be done

Third class can be a lot more difficult and there is a lot more independent writing so it it great you have picked up on things yourself

No, none of my aunts/ uncles or their partners can speak Irish (bar a few words), before those that went to the Gael Scoil no one in my family could speak it, the kids all can now. We don't live in a Gaeltacht either.

I'm a few years off sending my DS to primary and we don't have a gael scoil anywhere near where I live now but I'd def have considered it.

Just saw a FB from an guy I knew as a child. He and his siblings were the only kids I knew who went to a Gaelscoil. It was one of the first - Parnell Sq if memory serves. Later he emigrated and taught English at a secondary school in London. So obviously he had no issues with bilingualism.

Lately I've noticed many people seem to struggle with spelling. Even short simple words like 'Our' , ' being ' or ' thought' are routinely misspelled. I don't know if it is anything to do with teaching methods or just that nobody reads anymore? Apart from semi literate Internet posts I suppose. All schools have their advantages and drawbacks. My friends children attended a Steiner primary school. They were very happy and all their classmates seemed very bright and open minded. But they were miles behind in eg maths and spelling at secco. The kids who went to the convent or national school had it all in their heads already. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

I’ve a daughter going into rang a do, second class in a gaelscoil. Juniors-1st class is full immersion and by the curriculum until 1st class there should be absolutely no English spoken in the classroom. The English education starts in 1st and continues on.

She absolutely has done phonics in both Irish (juniors and seniors) and English (this past year 1st class). I work fulltime so we do very little extra work with her and if I’m honest rarely manage to do homework but her reading and writing level have now caught up and finishing 1st class her reading and writing in English is probably same level as a child finishing seniors in and English school and by the end of 2nd class i would expect it to be equal. I’m not saying I have a genius child, far from it, on her Sigma Ts and Micro Ts she scored below average this year.

I think maybe your issue is that the school itself isn’t great, rather than necessarily that it is a gaelscoil.

Thanks so much it's good to hear about others experiences. I feel for the schools too as there is such a teacher staffing crisis....most teachers are young, just starting out and living at home so there are very few with years of experience in the school, high teacher turnover and huge class sizes.