Gaelscoil - when do they catch up in English writing

[Mumof3onetwothree]

Wondering do children who have attended a Gaelscoil catch up in written English without additional help - or do they ever. I have heard a lot of stories of people who went to gaelscoileanna being very behind in English once they got to secondary school and this seems to regarded as an acceptable trade off for having good Irish.
My child is finishing second class and is very behind their peers at English speaking schools. They even struggle with some spoken English grammer and we are an English speaking household. Their reading is very average but I have spent time every single evening for years doing English reading. My child can barely spell a word in either Irish or English.

It is great having good spoken Irish but in reality secondary school will be through English as there isn't an Irish secondary option nearby and I'm really concerned that not being able to write properly or quickly will make life a massive struggle in English and other subjects like history and geography.
I hear of local Gaelscoil parents during an hour of extra work with their children each day to improve their English, hiring tutors etc. I really think this shouldn't be necessary at primary level.

but I get the impression quite a number of parents are sort of homeschooling English if that makes sense.

That is every school. I do it myself I suppose although I definitely gave DC1 an hour a day and tried to do the same for DC2 who wasn’t receptive to it so I couldn’t do as much and had to do it in smaller bursts. DC2 doesn’t enjoy reading so every child is different.

In my DC1’s year, 90% of the kid’s did extra maths, English and another language (their parent’s home language) as extra curricular activities on top of the usual swimming classes, sport, music and drama. However in DC2’s year the average is two extra curricular activities. Same school.

Obviously you have to do home reading and bedtime reading in both English and Irish which halves the usual English reading time instantly.

But you’d have known that prior to selecting the school. Why did you select it out of interest? I’d have liked my kids to go to a Spanish but knew I couldn’t support them.

@Mumof3onetwothree@Mumof3onetwothree quite harsh on the children? In what way? This school is sounding progressively worse & worse!!!

I definitely didnt know this. My parents never did extra work with myself or my siblings and we all did very well all the way through school.
The school actively said that lots of homework is a waste of time, the work is completed in the school day and extra work is unnecessary....I literally asked these specific questions before enrolling. It's one of the reasons I chose the school because I had heard of other children in other schools including relatives children getting ridiculous amounts of homework. I got very little homework myself and was in large classes of over 30. I genuinely cannot understand why after 6 hours of school a day children should need to do anything outside of that except read.

I completely disagree with this! Most of the parents in my dcs class and friends with kids in other schools complain about having to do homework. They definitely don't spend extra time homeschooling. Maybe in your part of the world but it's not widespread. And we're in quite an affluent area.

I agree. It's not right to have to do huge amounts of extra work just to keep up with the basic curriculum.

I think a lot of this may come down to parental aspirations & ambitions for their children.
Most parents would like to see their children thriving not just surviving in school so take the bull by the horns & do extention work at home.
Some children may enjoy & want this. Maybe it's child led?
DS gets about 40 mins, he's going into 6th & the homework is now more project based which he is enjoying immensely.

You have misinterpreted what I wrote. It isn’t to ‘keep up’ with the basic curriculum. It is to support and enhance it. In the same way as when the children are learning about various art styles, you visit galleries so they can see it in person.

When they are learning the time, you play games at home about travel times etc. When they are learning about a country, you talk about what food they eat in the country or watch YouTube videos about everyday life there. Yes it’s basic but learning isn’t confined to school hours. Parents actively support too. If your kids are in a fantastic school who take them on trips to galleries that takes the pressure off the parents a bit I guess.

As I said, I wanted/want to move to Spain. My kids will not manage in immersed environment without additional support from their parents so regrettably the move wasn’t feasible for us.

Absolutely, imo it's not fair on the children. It's enough for them being at school learning all day , coming home and doing homework.. to then have additional work on top of it Is complete overload.
I also disagree with that poster re extra support with the language. We are in NI , my kids attend a Bunscoil and the majority of parents have NO Irish. Most of the children get on fine.

And we're in quite an affluent area

Im quite flabbergasted by your need to write this as if being in an affluent area gives your opinion more weight.

I'm confused here, you are saying on one hand that you don't know if the school is doing phonics as you have never seen evidence of phonics in the homework, you also chose this school because this school gives minimal homework...your child is clearly struggling.
My ds as I mentioned gets 40 mins of homework, I like to see this as I can see exactly what was covered in school on a given day as the homework is consolidating his learning!
Why would you not want to know this?
I'm really confused as you keep contradicting yourself!

40 mins in 6th class is minimal homework for 6th class in my opinion! Sounds like your child is in a low homework school.

Your child isn't in a gaelscoil. It doesn't like you have experience of one. Yet you seem very insistent on the theory that this Gaelscoil is an anomaly, that I'm just a silly parent who contradicts myself and why on earth I would send my leave my child in such a dreadful school.

It's not outside the realms of possibility that actually the Gaelscoil system is very flawed and disadvantageous to a significant minority of children for whom reading, writing and language does not come easily. And that the dept of education are allowing gaelscoileanna to promote the 'children are like sponges' narrative and letting gaelscoileanna away with teaching no English in junior or senior infants (this is Irish nationalism not good educational practice) and therefore delaying the identification of additional needs.

I'm not going to comment again on this thread but I've put that last paragraph in for anyone reading this who might this I'm just a silly parent who didn't want to bother with homework or inform myself about gaelscoileanna before sending my child to one. I asked many people about their experiences. I read the gaeloideachas website. I spoke to the principal. I didn't hear or see anything about the problems that I and others in this school and other local gaelscoileanna have experienced.

This quote from the gaeloideachas website sums up my understanding before enrolling my child. My experience has been the opposite to this quote and I'm not buying this argument that it's the individual schools fault. It is the Gaelscoil system and the relentless promotion of the wonders of gaelscoileanna. I just want to make this clear for anyone who is 'doing their research ' and honestly if I had even read one thread like this mumsnet one when doing my research my child wouldn't be in a gaelscoil. There are plenty of Irish nationalist gaelgoir types who won't hear a word against them and gloss over the problems.

"How will learning everything through Irish affect my child's development in English?

'Irish-medium immersion education has a positive effect on students’ fluency in English, rather than a negative one. Students’ abilities in other languages (including English) is helped rather than hindered. Parents need not worry about the students’ ability should they choose to continue study at third level, as the skills the students develop at post-primary level are transferrable to their third-level education. Students do not have difficulty getting to grips with terminology in English as they have already developed an understanding of the concepts required to study the subject."

It takes my child 40 mins on average, it might take another 1 hr 20 another 30 mins!
It doesn't matter what type of school my son is in, all schools follow the same curriculum!

Also if you think the Gaelscoil system is flawed you do have the option to move your child who is struggling.

I searched your name just there & it seems you have had numerous issues with this school since January! You even started a thread about moving your child to an English school & also another issue about seating your kid next to boys. You are obviously very unhappy with this particular school!

As a parent you are your child's primary educator, not the state, not the school, not the teachers. It's actually in the constitution so there is lots you can do to help bridge the gap.

Many posters on here have suggested getting your child a private dyslexia test to rule out or confirm any special educational needs which will give your child ammunition in demanding the support they need but you seem reluctant to go down that route!

You did say you chose the school due to minimal homework in comparison to your friends & relatives in other schools. And you have also belittled other parents who choose to extend learning & go beyond the curriculum at home.

You said you wouldn't bother with a Gaelscoil again if you had read your thread again.

Also what in God's name is an "Irish nationalist type" parent?

This thread is getting more batshit by the hour!

It's not to give my opinion more weight, it's because let's face it - it's mostly the more educated parents who are going above and beyond wanting their kids to do well isn't it?

https://www.tusla.ie/tess/information-for-parents-and-guardians-tess/education-welfare-service/what-is-the-role-of-the-parent/

Just to back up what I have mentioned in my post. The role of a parent is that of the child's main educator, maybe that is why the parents you refer to as doing extra work at home are so invested in their dc's education, it's their job.

Please come back & explain what an "Irish nationalist Gaeilgeoir" type parent is?!

Obviously they won't hear a word against a Gaelscoil if they are Gaeilgeors as they made a conscious choice to educate their children through the Irish medium & have the language themselves to support them at home!
You said yourself you chose that school due to the minimal amount of homework given in comparison to other schools which highlights the different reasons parents choose schools!

Solomama I just want to pick up on a point you've mentioned and I'm not having a go at you. We have been discouraged by the school to teach kids to count or to write before they start because they prefer to start from scratch as such. They say that the way they teach and how the average parent will show the child are totally different. It will only confuse the child. So that contradicts parents being the number 1 educator.

No not necessarily. People who are intelligent want their kids to do well. Intellect and education are two different things.

The constitution & Tusla both state that the parent is the child's main educator so the parents choice overrides the school as the parent is ultimately responsible for their childs education not the state. Obviously if the child is not attending school etc the state can step in then.

So if the parent decides to count or write with their child that is their prerogative!

Ultimately parents will make their own decisions for their own child based on the child they have, it's their job.

I can't remember my sons school making any stipulations about what children should or shouldn't have been taught starting school. If my son wanted to know I certainly would have taught him. I wouldn't have said "I can't teach you to write your name or count to 10 because the school said I'm not allowed"!

On the plus side OP you have acknowledged and identified your child needs help. So what have you done about it?

Hire a tutor over the summer and sign your child up for classes outside of school from Sept. You have six weeks of the summer to start making a real difference.

Or are you waiting for the school to do everything?

@Username1010 I also the op if a private dyslexia test has been arranged? If the op's child had this ammunition going back to school they couldn't refuse extra help if sen are identified.

It's not because you're not allowed , it's so as not to confuse the child when they school will be showing th a different way. I remember being very confused by my parents maths methods when I was stuck on maths
Their hearts were in the right place but it didn't do me any good tbh.

That was my point, schools have no authority over what parents wish to teach their children, they may advice but ultimately a child's education is the responsibility of the parents. If my son wants to know or learn anything they haven't covered in school yet of course I'll help him/

But it was your parents perogative as your primary educators as recognised by the state to teach you if they wished to.

Then you cannot rely on the school as @Mumof3onetwothree has pointed out her children have done no phonics in school & are learning to read with the finger under the word method.

@Mumof3onetwothree

And that the dept of education are allowing gaelscoileanna to promote the 'children are like sponges' narrative and letting gaelscoileanna away with teaching no English in junior or senior infants (this is Irish nationalism not good educational practice)

The immersion style method is based on research done here in Ireland. When they segmented the gealscoileanna standardised test scores they found that Children who were educated in the total immersion method had higher tests scores later on than when they learn to read in both languages at the same time. So it’s completely based on good educational practice. Not nationalism??

i think with a Gaelscoil you do have to be committed to the language and believe in the process.

Your school sounds lacking - tough on children, using dated teaching methods, doesn’t like noisy parents, high staff turnover.
This is not my experience of primary school at all. This is not your average primary school in Ireland.

I have just read the full thread as my 5 year old is starting in a Gaelscoil in September, she has attended Naíonra for the past two years. She appears to have a grá for the language & was very excited to meet her múinteoir back in June at the open morning. I think the advantages of an education as Gaeilge outweigh any disadvantages. @Mumof3onetwothree I hope things work out for your child, this parenting business is tough 💐

@Mumof3onetwothree I was reading this thread with interest. How is your child getting on now that school has restarted?