Gaelscoil - when do they catch up in English writing

[Mumof3onetwothree]

Wondering do children who have attended a Gaelscoil catch up in written English without additional help - or do they ever. I have heard a lot of stories of people who went to gaelscoileanna being very behind in English once they got to secondary school and this seems to regarded as an acceptable trade off for having good Irish.
My child is finishing second class and is very behind their peers at English speaking schools. They even struggle with some spoken English grammer and we are an English speaking household. Their reading is very average but I have spent time every single evening for years doing English reading. My child can barely spell a word in either Irish or English.

It is great having good spoken Irish but in reality secondary school will be through English as there isn't an Irish secondary option nearby and I'm really concerned that not being able to write properly or quickly will make life a massive struggle in English and other subjects like history and geography.
I hear of local Gaelscoil parents during an hour of extra work with their children each day to improve their English, hiring tutors etc. I really think this shouldn't be necessary at primary level.

@Ballygowenwater@Ballygowenwater@Ballygowenwater Apologies for tagging you three times but I agree with you, it doesn't sound like a very good school at all. The issues sound like it's the school itself not that it's an Irish medium school.

I think it’s strange there is a high staff turnover. That’s fairly unusual I’d guess.

@Mumof3onetwothree high teacher turnover isn't normal. I have children in two different primary schools and never experienced it . That would suggest a management issue. Also not all schools have huge class sizes even in over subscribed areas. My daughters school have a cut off now of 24 I believe. I know it was almost 30 per class in that school at one stage several years ago.

I queried this with a local politician....they recommend lower class size especially in the infant years but it is at the schools discretion. I can't understand why the classes are so big as similar to you I have heard of other local schools capping in the low twenties. I am guessing high teacher turnover is due to accommodation problems.

Everything that @Mumof3onetwothree is saying points to highly unusual & very concerning set up.
I cannot understand why she is keeping her children in this environment where they are not reaching their potential? She sounds deeply unhappy with the school herself. There is no excusing this schools poor performance.
If you know other local schools have low class sizes & you are clearly very unsatisfied with the school why are you not doing all in your power to get your child who is struggling moved?

If they are going to restrict class size so much in other schools then of course it makes it difficult to plan a move. I'm not sure why you are so condemning of my situation. It doesn't sound like your children are in a gaelscoil. Many parents are very happy with our school. I was trying to get a feel for what is the norm in terms of writing ability. No school is perfect. Others who have moved from our school due to learning difficulties are not particularly happy with the schools they have had to go to....note they have have had to take whatever place comes up and not the school of their preference and it has been incredibly stressful. Moving has not been easy for them. And I'm not sure where everyone else who has been commenting lives but all the local schools here have recruitment issues and often have subs taking classes. Other nearby schools seem worse than ours in that regard.
I do think it is very unfair that there is no official acknowledgement that gaelscoileanna are very challenging for learning difficulties and if a child has to move they should have to be accommodated in a local school that has the most appropriate ethos and location for the family. If a new Gaelscoil is set up in an area there should be official recognition in terms of school places that a certain percentage of children will have to leave and will need be accommodated elsewhere.

The teacher staffing schedule is the same across all non deis schools. A school can decide to only take 24 in but that will impact on teacher allocation overall. In the senior classes they may end up in a class and a half. In other words if a school is a non deis school they cannot choose to have smaller class sizes.

Op I completely understand where you are coming from it is a huge move to move a child in the middle classes to a new school. There are lots of ways you can support her if you don't want her to move

@Martymcfly24 this is definitely not a deis school and it has a three class entry per year. It is however very well run with a fabulous school principal.

I am sure that is all true but the amount of teachers a school has depends on the staffing schedule. You get X amount of teachers for X amount of pupils. You cannot change this. It will obviously mean the numbers are bigger in the senior classes. (Which is best practice)
www.gov.ie/en/circular/2fb42-staffing-arrangements-in-primary-schools-for-the-202425-school-year/

Either way I think we are all in agreement that the school the OPs children are attending sounds awful and is not typical of how most schools are.

Absolutely.

High staff turnover is not good in a school. Consistency and a variety of ages and experience are essential in a school.

I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. You sound like a great mum & you have every right to be concerned. From your posts you do sound very unhappy.
It sounds like the school has numerous issues & it does not sound like a remotely good school from your description.
My son attends a mixed English speaking primary, many of the staff have been there for years with some approaching retirement age. There is 28 in his class so it is quite large but other schools in our area have similar.
All schools in the country have to follow the same curriculum so it sounds like the issue is with the particular school your dc is attending not the fact it's a Gaelscoil.
You said upthread they are teaching children to read with their fingers & haven't done phonics as a learn to read method . That in itself is bizarre! Has the school had any recent inspections? You can see these on schooldays.ie. It must be the only school in Ireland teaching children in this fashion.

Thanks so much....I really don't know. It doesn't come across in this thread but I have spoken to other people in person who have children in other gaelscoils in the relatively local Dublin area to us....I get a general vibe that in those schools too English is not really taught much at all and because the parents are clued in and start teaching English at home early it and children with difficulties leave the lack of English teaching doesn't show up in standardised tests or inspections....phonics probably is technically part of the curriculum somewhere it just has never come home and the children don't mention it. I feel that English is the least important subject and if there isn't time in the school day thats the subject that is skipped. I am unhappy because I asked the school staff all the questions eg learning difficulties , punishing for speaking English, will they be behind in English etc before enrolling and was given a completely different impression to what has actually transpired....I feel stupid also because the more clued in parents clearly knew all this and gave their children a headstart. We had great school options before junior infants and now cannot get into any of the schools that we prefer/ are in any way convenient to where we live as they are full.

have spoken to other people in person who have children in other gaelscoils in the relatively local Dublin area to us....I get a general vibe that in those schools too English is not really taught much at all and because the parents are clued in and start teaching English at home early it and children with difficulties leave the lack of English teaching doesn't show up in standardised tests or inspections

Every school has to follow the curriculum. Although most Gaelscoils follow the total immersion method till rang 1 then they learn English as per the curriculum. My children have high standardised test scores in both English and Irish and I’ve not done more than read to them and encourage them to read - which is the best way to support them. I’m not sure if parents in our school are teaching their kids to read in English younger - I think it would be confusing actually, as the total immersion method is based on research that it is better to learn to read/write one language at a time in the beginning. There is loads of research about the benefits of learning through another language- I really would stop looking at the Irish and start looking at your school.

Your school sounds highly unusual. It is rare to have a high staff turnover in a school environment. You mention “progressive teaching methods” - what on earth is this? Teachers in Ireland are trained at a handful of colleges and all following the same curriculum. Also I’ve never heard of children learning to read through sight, in recent times. I’d go in and talk to your school, in September and find out what is going on.

And inspections are looking at the whole school approach and teaching- not how well the kids are doing, which is obviously down to a variety of factors. So it’s worth reading your latest inspection on school days.ie

I feel stupid also because the more clued in parents clearly knew all this and gave their children a headstart.

Just in reply to this @Mumof3onetwothree this happens in every school in the country.
In my sons class (local English speaking primary) I know of two kids who are fluent in Irish as their parents have a grá for the language which they have passed onto their kids. They are streets ahead & rightly so.
Other kids may excel at maths as their parents enjoy playing maths games with them.
No school or classroom is every going to be a level playing field. Some children have teacher parents or grandparents.
Just focus on your own child & speak to the school. Nearly every poster who has replied has said that what is going on is highly unusual. Inspection reports are your friend here.

'progressive teaching methods'....not teaching spellings!
Apparently it's not the best way for children to learn to spell??!! I mean how else do you learn to spell if you don't practice

Sorry I meant a headstart in English

Inspection report is very good for everything. Hasn't been inspected for a long time.

good phonetic awareness is apparently the basics of learning to spell. Grouping words into similar words too - light, right ect…My kids do a spelling book called Spell it. But the curriculum has changed a lot since the 80’s if that’s when you were in school. Learning to read by sight or learning off lists of spellings just isn’t done in the same way anymore.

There is guidance on the curriculum here. ncca.ie/en/primary/resources-for-parents/

I recently bought Spell it I think....if that's the one that uses the look copy cover method. That's how I was taught to spell. I was taught to read and write in England and still have some of the textbooks. They used a combination of phonics and learning spellings via the look copy cover method and that was decades ago. My child has never had spellings for homework and they didn't use any form of spelling book this year.

Sorry I meant a headstart in English

What is a headstart in English though?

Isn't it the same as maths where many parents have extra books at home that have maths puzzles, learning to read the time, times tables and so on?
For reading, I remember having rhyming books, word searches, building ladders where you change the first letter of each word to create a new word. My kids were/are at a regular English school but doing these sort of things at home helps support whatever they have learned/are learning/will learn at school. You'll have done these things too and I can't see what else you could have done really. You are being too hard on yourself.

You were better trained than us so. spell it has a lot of different things in it. Getting spellings for homework has been teacher dependent for us but they have always done some kind of traditional spelling as I would have known it.

https://midlandbooks.ie/product/spell-it-2020-3rd-class-workbook/?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADkdh63_EqwBe3bIWV-UmWbaZ0Qp0&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyr2PzMmxhwMVUolQBh1-bQ7dEAQYASABEgKeZfD_BwE

Antidotely from my own experiences of attending Gaelscoil and my children’s is that I don’t think learning difficulties is picked up by the schools as early as they are in English speaking schools. I think this is where parents need to be quite “on it”. Getting your head around the curriculum, meeting the school and being noisy if you feel like your child needs extra support. There are Kumon tutors that you can pay for to bring your child up to speed if you feel they need it. Spendy but worth it if you can

www.kumon.ie

Thanks so much I mean for example one parent said to me recently they'd spent a dedicated hour a day teaching English at home from jr infants onwards. They've an only child though and I can't manage that amount of time during term time as I've other children. And I see children from the school at extra curricular activities and playdates etc...I often see them reading quite hard books from senior infants onwards....someone has definitely spent a significant amount of time teaching them to read in English as it's total immersion in Irish for the first two years. We have word search books and jigsaws that make up words and so on but I get the impression quite a number of parents are sort of homeschooling English if that makes sense...

Thanks so much yes that's definitely the book I bought. Thanks for the recommendation.
Absolutely, they don't pick up learning difficulties early. And they don't seem to be watching out for difficulties in the early years in the way that other schools do. Lots of children have left after getting a dyslexia diagnosis.
The school are not keen on noisy parents. I have tried to speak to them a couple of times and have felt very pushed back...I am quiet and not pushy myself and the conversations were short but I was really made to feel I was being unreasonable and wasting teachers time. It didn't help my child at all, they most definitely are not going to give resource hours and I am wary of making things worse for her by drawing attention to her as they can be quite harsh to the children sometimes.