Referendum!

[springbrigid]

Anyone inclined to give an opinion? I am leaning towards a yes/no vote, the yes to remove what I see as sexist language in the constitution, the no because the government are so appalling in terms of providing services and rights to disabled citizens and I feel the clause is paternalistic and pushes care on families yet again

I can't see the results on that poll.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the vote is No. Lots of people seem uninterested and many don't seem to be aware there is a Referendum

Was talking to a SF head just last week . Gay lad. He thinks it will be easier for SF to climb down on the trans issue than eg PBP or the Greens. SF support is more broad based. Most of their members here in the Republic are focused on the dreadful housing crisis and homelessness. Luxury beliefs will not win the next election.

okay, at the moment it reads:

• Yes to both 5.2%
• No to both 89.2%
• Yes (Carer) No (Family) 2.8%
• No (Carer) Yes (Family) 2.8%

8,473 votes 2 hours left

Crikey. But of course we won't know til the actual vote.

If the percentage remains that high for No it will be a very well deserved hard slap in the face for our sham of a government.
Hopefully a sign of things to come.

Hard to predict how many people will turn out to vote. Weather forecast at this stage is for rain or sleet and high of 8 degrees. A lot of oldies are out and about on Fridays because it's pension day - younger people, who knows?

It's worth noting Niall Boylan attracts a lot of followers who are anti government not all are but in fairness to him he asks a lot of questions that middle of the road people are thinking and want answers to so I think his poll result reflects that.

I think there is such an anti government sentiment here in Ireland that alone could swing it..
Whatever the
government want is not in the interest of the Irish people, that alone is enough to vote No.

Also many schools are closed for the voting, many parents myself included have had to take a day off so that may increase the numbers too.

I do think the results will be closer than previously thought. I also think it will be more anti government protest vote than carers and women support.

Rallying yes voters did cause a slight shift on the poll at the end to:

• Yes to both 5.3%
• No to both 89.1%
• Yes (Carer) No (Family) 2.9%
• No (Carer) Yes (Family) 2.8%

9,000 votes Final results

very interesting - time will tell

I am voting no, no. What is a durable relationship? It's a question that no one can seem to answer. To some people marriage is antiquated and does not matter but in reality marriage gives a couple more rights and legal protection. If people want these rights why don't they get married. People can say I can't afford to get married but in reality they can't afford the big wedding to outdo weddings of friends or family. I knew people like this.

This government have shown no regard for the disabled in Ireland or their families. It a constant battle to get help, services or respite. Meanwhile parents are minding kids 24/7 and saving the state a fortune. To get careers allowance ect you have to fill out enough forms to paper a room and you probably told no your not entitled to this in the hope that you go away.
I know people that have applied twice for this. I had a friend who was entitled to a disability allowance and they had a far from easy time getting this.

This government are now proposing that people on disability should now be on different levels. One level is for those that physically can't work and 2 levels are for those that should be able to get a job. The 2 levels that should be able to get a job will be hounded to go to job services, apply for jobs and take employment. Yet if people do this they lose their medical card as they will be over the income level. If you have a long term health issues you need this to cover the costs of regular GP visits, blood tests and medication.
They could lose their free travel as well and this enables people to have some bit of independence if they are physically able to get a bus, train, dart ect on their own.
The Torres brought a similar system into the UK and it been a nightmare for people. Some people have killed themselves over the pressure they were put under to look for work or lose your money.

I think that when people look into this I hope they realise that both changes need a no/no.
If you want to change the constitution you need it to be written in a clear language that can be understood by people. I feel that this wording leaves things very open to this government and the courts to bring changes that will make things worse for people.

I am voting no, no. What is a durable relationship? It's a question that no one can seem to answer. To some people marriage is antiquated and does not matter but in reality marriage gives a couple more rights and legal protection. If people want these rights why don't they get married. People can say I can't afford to get married but in reality they can't afford the big wedding to outdo weddings of friends or family. I knew people like this.

This government have shown no regard for the disabled in Ireland or their families. It a constant battle to get help, services or respite. Meanwhile parents are minding kids 24/7 and saving the state a fortune. To get careers allowance ect you have to fill out enough forms to paper a room and you probably told no your not entitled to this in the hope that you go away.
I know people that have applied twice for this. I had a friend who was entitled to a disability allowance and they had a far from easy time getting this.

This government are now proposing that people on disability should now be on different levels. One level is for those that physically can't work and 2 levels are for those that should be able to get a job. The 2 levels that should be able to get a job will be hounded to go to job services, apply for jobs and take employment. Yet if people do this they lose their medical card as they will be over the income level. If you have a long term health issues you need this to cover the costs of regular GP visits, blood tests and medication.
They could lose their free travel as well and this enables people to have some bit of independence if they are physically able to get a bus, train, dart ect on their own.
The Torres brought a similar system into the UK and it been a nightmare for people. Some people have killed themselves over the pressure they were put under to look for work or lose your money.

I think that when people look into this I hope they realise that both changes need a no/no.
If you want to change the constitution you need it to be written in a clear language that can be understood by people. I feel that this wording leaves things very open to this government and the courts to bring changes that will make things worse for people.

It will definitely be an anti government result.
Mary Lou didn't help by saying if the No vote won she would rerun the referendum 🤣
Literally proving there is a sinister agenda. The powers that be want this to pass in the worse possible way & it's certainly not for the good of us Irish citizens.

Exactly.
The government can't answer What is a durable relationship?
or
What is a woman?

They are absolutely not to be trusted. The biggest slap in the face for them would be a big fat No No result on International Women's day.
Remember they hired a man (trans woman) to speak last year on International Women's day. We won't forget that.

https://gript.ie/smash-woman-activist-to-address-dail-womans-day-event/

Just remember this man who claims he is a woman was invited to speak in the Dáil last year to celebrate International Women's Day!
This person or Trans Woman as he calls himself has a fairly colourful attitude to biological women.
It shows what contempt & utter disrespect the current government have for us biological women if they chose this character to speak on our behalf on International Women's Day!

This International Women's dc Day let's wipe the smiles off their smug faces & Vote NO NO in reposnse to last years humiliation.

I think a lot of No-No voters and their supporters are really putting off progressive potential Yes-No voters, just as the citing of gript and Niall Boylan have really put me off this thread.

It's pretty sad that anything about Irish politics on mumsnet just gets overwhelmed by the right wing who continually use the same disingenuous tactics 'oh I just try to read as widely as I can' 'oh I know some people don't like [insert racist/homophobic rag/commentator here] but they've some good points' and then derail the thread every single time by getting completely pedantic with anyone who engages with them in good faith and doesn't wholly support what they're saying.....

My intending to vote no/no doesn't make me right wing. I'm a life-long Feminist, life-long Trades Unionist, former carer. Five decades of living in Ireland with the present Constitution, and the present politicians and bureaucrats, makes me very alert what what is not problematic about the former, what is problematic about the latter, and how 'yes' votes on either proposal could make things much worse for women and for carers.

I find the emotive naivety of some of the people arguing for a yes' vote horribly reminiscent of those who pushed for the 8th amendment in 1983.

@springbrigid howling 😁

I really hope the constitutioncy on 8th Match IWD remember that last year the government invited a woman hating (who wanted to smash women) trans woman to give a speech in the Dáil on International Women's Day.
A NO NO vote would be a nice little payback for the brazen contempt & disrespect the government have for women.

Also @springbrigid the more the likes of you & the media throw around the term "right wing" willy nilly (the way you continue to) the less power the term has & the less impact it has. So please keep using it!!!!

It appears that 89% of that poll is right wing by your "right wing barometer" 😁😁

Please keep using right wing in every sentence, every time you go you weaken it's effect so very soon the "right wing" will be meaningless!! Unless of course that is your aim?

I think a lot of potential yes voters are put off by Roderick misogynist O'Gorman.

As long as ROG is in government it is not safe to lose any constitutional reference to mothers or women.

Woman
Mother
#These words belong to us.

We should be not be deleted or our contributions dismissed simply for being women and mothers.

Vote No/No.

I am left of centre. Not even right wing let alone far right.
I will be voting NO NO. As will my sons and my father.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b42c1fa2-2b47-436a-be96-3ad164645705?shareToken=7e162154e99dfb77083cc013fbc1a176

An interesting comment piece in the Times Ireland section today, I had never heard of the upcoming case in the Supreme Court which could be affected by this.

Also, the fact that the government didn't hold a pre-legislative debate on this referendum is ridiculous.

I'll be voting No/No.

I would also hazard a guess a lot of women voters have not had the "joy" of surviving the Magdalene homes.

The same women who RO'G happily took from to give to TENI, an organisation who had its funding stopped as a result of a lot of financial discrepancies.

@springbrigid rock if calling myself a mother & baby home survivor right wing. If that's what it takes to protect mothers in Ireland.

You rick on, my experience and all the others paved the way for others to have better supports.

Also enjoy your are slagging off Niall Bolan another mother & baby home survivor.

Did ye hear the press conference the other day with Leo Varadkar talking about having been to, like, loads of meetings and stuff to get the wording right? It was almost as if it's outside the job and we should be voting to reward their diligence.

I am most definitely not right wing, never mind far right. I have generally voted left in elections, I am socially liberal (I voted No in 1983, yes to each referendum on divorce, yes to marriage equality, yes to repeal).

I am voting No, No for reasons that are probably very different to those from a socially conservative viewpoint who are voting no, no.

I read widely in order to inform myself. Reading the perspective of those I disagree with helps to see where they are coming from and hopefully enables a recognition of common ground.