Referendum!

[springbrigid]

Anyone inclined to give an opinion? I am leaning towards a yes/no vote, the yes to remove what I see as sexist language in the constitution, the no because the government are so appalling in terms of providing services and rights to disabled citizens and I feel the clause is paternalistic and pushes care on families yet again

It is but Peig's book epitomises the concept to my mind. All those cows and children falling off cliffs could only be lamented.

Is breoite mise 😭 🐮 🌊

Ah now come on. You've still got more cows and children. No need to be breoite.

There are so many reasons people are voting no - many progressive groups and feminist analysts who are the furthest thing from gript are advocating a no vote on 42b.

All I remember about Peig is her holding her pipe in her beal with her one remaining fiacla!! Apologies for possible misspellings and misrememberings, I'm only delighted with myself for dredging up the words from the depths of my brain!!!

That's impressive. I remember the pipe but had forgotten the píopa but had forgotten she only had the one fiacail.

I wonder how Péig would have voted?

@festivefavorites @OchonAgusOchonOh

I read the gript article. It's dodgy as hell, really poor journalism.

It cites as an expert Niamh Uí Bhriain (née Nic Mathúna), the co-founder of the notorious Youth Defence and an extreme Catholic pro-lifer who is aligned with the religious far right in the USA who poured huge money into the anti-repeal campaign - within an article about NGOs supporting a particular vote!

There will be as many different reasons to vote NO as there are people

Loads of articles in Gript are crap. I never claimed otherwise. However, some do make some valid points.

The point I have been making is that I read a wide variety of sources in order to get a better understanding of the issues. All media sources are biased to varying degrees. The only way to get a broad picture is to read widely and critically analyse the sources.

Exactly @OchonAgusOchonOh it's so important to get news from all sources. Some mainstream media have been quoting fecking Panti Bliss in this upcoming referendum & he has been extremely vocal about the immigration protests in Ballinrobe, I cannot stand the man but I will still read what he has to say even though his agenda is crystal clear.

Information is power. And that is more important now than ever before.
And take info from every source going, compare & contrast.

We love in a democracy & thankfully have some alternative, opposition news sources alongside the mainstream media .
Exhaust all sources. Read between the lines, draw your own conclusions.

I feel well enough informed, thanks. The article told me nothing new, and was exactly as I thought it might be. I don't have time to deeply engage with rags like that, just as I wouldn't watch a movie I thought I mightn't like or eat food that I think will be disgusting.

I'd rather get my information from analysts I trust. This is a great analysis of 42b https://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/womens-invisible-labour-kinkeeping-and-care-irelands-8-march-constitutional-referendum/

What exactly does 'all sources' mean? There are an infinite number, it is impossible to read everything.

Stop making excuses and get on with your reading @springbrigid

There are only two things everyone should read wrt this vote. One is the proposed new wording, and the other, really really important, is the Constitution itself.

@springbrigid
I think there are a lot of people going off on tangents at this stage. When I linked the Gript article I acknowledged that it wasn't everyone's cup of tea. They are sensationalist and can be click bait with their links, I acknowledge that. I don't pretend to be a big fan.
Most people , I hope, will have the intelligence to separate the agenda from the issue.
What I wasn't expecting was to be called 'far right' for linking it!!
This need to label people as extremist is a relatively new phenomenon and I find it incredibly divisive.
The reason I linked the article is because I have reservations about the National Council for Women using public funds to campaign for a yes vote.
Gript is the only place I have seen this questioned, hence the link.
I have no other agenda for linking Gript!
There are many women the National Council for Women are also supposed to represent, who don't support a yes vote.
Yet they have abandoned these women as they don't fit the narrative.
These include women with disabilities, and a close friend of mine, a single mother, who has basically sacrificed her own life to care for her now adult son.
I know she feels unseen because basically, she has spent over 20 years at home with little support. No job, no social life, no holidays.
As a woman, what have the National Council for Women being doing for her?
I spoke with her only yesterday. Her opinion is that a yes vote will change nothing, and, in fact, only recognises her son as a burden.
When she saw a video online of the Women's Council going around the country with a bus campaigning for a yes vote, it only reinforced her perception of being a woman who didn't matter to them.
I know other care groups are advocating for a yes vote, but even they acknowledged that it won't really achieve anything of significance.
This is not a 'far right' view and I am sick of this type of sh'te being thrown about.

Just to add The Countess are doing excellent work for the upcoming referendum. Lots of videos & articles on their socials.
I have lost all respect for the National Women's Council.
They are a NGO & Roderic O Gorman has threatened to remove funding from all Ngos if they don't lobby for a yes vote.
It feels so sinister that they want this passed so badly.

https://gript.ie/the-irish-independents-strange-cat-killing-woman/

Just to highlight differences in reporting. Mainstream media eg The Irish Independent has described the cat killing murderer as a woman. In fact the murderer was born a man & became a trans woman. Why is that not reported? This is why I read Gript.
It is important to me to know that the killer wasn't a biological woman.
Huge difference in reporting right there @springbrigid .
How there the mainstream media call that person a woman. Trans woman acceptable but do not tarnish women by lumping him in with us.

Following on from my above post

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/ellen-coyne-irish-feminism-has-such-a-fine-legacy-of-fighting-the-establishment-we-didnt-notice-when-it-actually-started-to-become-the-establishment/a977975019.html

An extract

"The biggest feminist NGO in the country, the National Women’s Council of Ireland, has been leading the Yes-Yes campaign. Which is also the Government’s campaign. In my view, the decision of the NWCI to back a Yes in the care referendum was a victory of career feminism over carers feminism.
Two human rights bodies — the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission and the Free Legal Advice Centre — have both made it quite clear that the care referendum will not create any new rights for anyone. And many disabled people and their families, who do not have the resources to run a national campaign, have been issuing dire warnings about the fact they believe the care referendum will actually diminish their rights.
But the NWCI, the feminists and the opposition parties chose to back a Yes anyway, because gestures and symbolism were more important. Erasing the so-called ‘women’s place’ amendment, which is sexist but which has not ever in real terms denied any woman the right to work outside the home, was prioritised.
These progressive feminists were happy to take the Government’s word that it will “strive” to make the lives of disabled people and carers better, after a Yes vote. Many people with disabilities and their families, who have spent their lives fighting that same government for support, were less credulous.
Regardless of whether or not the care referendum passes, real damage has now been done by left-wing organisations and politicians who have left many disabled women with the strong sense that their rights were sacrificed at the altar of respectable, palatable progressive politics. And that is a gesture that really means something.

That's an extremely good article, @festivefavorites - says it all.

They are sensationalist and can be click bait with their links
They're not just sensationalist, they incite hatred towards migrants and promote extreme views. I won't be reading them again as that implicitly supports them through number of 'clicks'. I sincerely hope they wither away.

Most people , I hope, will have the intelligence to separate the agenda from the issue
Most intelligent people recognise that the agenda always colours the issue, and can see themselves that organisations in receipt of state funding are advocating a yes vote without having to read gript!

What I wasn't expecting was to be called 'far right' for linking it!!
Who called you far right?

This need to label people as extremist is a relatively new phenomenon and I find it incredibly divisive
How is that new? There have always been extremists, of different kinds, in Irish culture.
It's important to recognise extremist organisations and guard against them for the common good.

The reason I linked the article is because I have reservations about the National Council for Women using public funds to campaign for a yes vote Why not just say that?

I know other care groups are advocating for a yes vote, but even they acknowledged that it won't really achieve anything of significance.
This is not a 'far right' view and I am sick of this type of sh'te being thrown about
Who said that it's a far right view?

Gript are far right, not all 'no' voters are.
I even said in my original post that I was leaning towards a no vote. Many, many of the most progressive commentators are, as are people and organisations on the far right. The resulting vote may be the same, but the motivations are different.

You had a go at someone for not wanting to read gript, you had a go at me after I read it - you seem to just want to rant for no particular reason. It's ironic your post started with I think there are a lot of people going off on tangents at this stage

I know what my values are, I know whose commentary and analysis I trust and whose voices I want to bolster. The views of the conservative and far right are unavoidable if you just listen to RTÉ i.e. the national broadcaster, as are the views of neo-liberal feminists.

The people most affected by 42b are disabled people and carers, the most comprehensive analyses are coming from legal experts who are intersectional feminists. That's who I am listening to most closely - disabled-led organisations and feminist legal scholars.

Here follows links to some solid legal analysis and a news story on a recently formed disabled-led group:

Máiréad Enright, Professor of Feminist Legal Studies, University of Birmingham
https://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/author/mairead-enright/

Maeve O'Rourke, Lecturer in Human Rights Law at Irish Centre for Human Rights at the National University of Ireland, Galway
https://maeveorourke.medium.com/a-right-to-care-and-the-care-referendum-on-8-march-9d6bdc7834ba

Free Legal Aid Centres
https://www.flac.ie/news/2024/02/19/flac-legal-and-human-rights-analysis-of-the-propos/

New disabled-led group Equality not Charity
https://www.thejournal.ie/care-referendum-campaign-6305607-Feb2024/#:~:text=However%2C%20the%20newly%20founded%20Equality,families%20rather%20than%20equal%20rightsholders.

I am going to start by going back a couple of pages. I linked an article from gript.ie because I thought it asked questions about the National Women's Council that I had recently been asking myself. I wonder who they represent, as my perception of them is that they are fairly elitist in their representation of women. Ellen Coyne asked similar questions in the Independent article I also linked. I had never heard of the Mckenna judgement and I thought the question as to whether a publicly funded organisation should spend public money in this way was a fair question. I would assume that the Women's Council aren't so foolish to do anything illegal, but I thought the broader question raised was interesting.
I began my post saying that Gript wasn't everyone's cup of tea, which I thought was an acknowledgement that I wasn't endorsing the publication itself.
What I didn't realise was that this would not be enough of a mea culpa and a more detailed explanation would be required. The post was made in good faith with no other agenda beyond that I thought it relevant to the discussion. The fact that you, as an individual poster, do not approve is your personal opinion. Other posters here have thanked me for the link and, presumably, found it of interest to them.

The reply I received following that post was this

"I love when people share Gript links. You instantly know not to even bother reading their post. Far right weirdos"
Yet you accuse me of having had a go at this poster? Seriously?
I actually tried to make light of it, even though I actually felt it was exceptionally rude and uncalled for.

Most of the posts after that were discussing the merits of Gript, hence my reference to tangents. Is that explanation good enough for you?

As for describing my posts as rants, where do I rant?
I gave an account of a friend of mine, who has had to fight for every service she receives for her son and who has made huge sacrificed in caring for him. This is completely in line with the discussion regarding the Referendum.
What a horrible thing to say.

I have no idea how representative the people voting on this poll are, but the results on it are - interesting.

https://twitter.com/Niall_Boylan/status/1763910396237218165

@DeanElderberry it the vote went that way I'll be celebrating International Women's day big time. A No result will be a big victory for women & carers. The government are proven liars time & time again. The constituency knows they are not to be trusted.
The majority of government can't even answer "what is a woman"? #votingNoNo

The Sunday Independent poll, published today, shows that approximately one third of people are undecided. Kevin Cunningham gives an interesting analysis on the results
https://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/poll-uncertainty-among-voters-could-lead-to-a-referendum-surprise-yet/a2059114672.html

Well if one is undecided the most rational thing to do is vote No, especially if it's something that never bothered one in the first place! Interesting article @festivefavorites & it is looking more & more positive for the No side as Friday draws closer!
Please God common sense will prevail #votingNoNo.