Coronavirus ROI/NI part 3

[YoungsterIwish]

The 3rd thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/craicnet/3874978-Coronavirus-in-ROI-NI-part-2?pg=40

It has to be more than just schools though as the majority of cases are in Dublin but schools are back nationwide.

I do think that on the whole people have become a bit complacent, which I know is only to be expected. Still, the vast vast majority of people in my town (not Dublin) are wearing masks and keeping a distance. I don't know what more we can do really? It's making me dread the coming Winter, lockdown was manageable in April & May when we had gorgeous weather and it was all a bit of a novelty....

I'm also finding the news very stressful, I don't think NPHET should be announcing their opinions publically at all. I think they should discuss privately with the relevant officials and then Government should make a public announcement on what's been decided. Hearing in advance what NPHET is suggesting, and then wondering if it's going to happen or not just makes me more anxious! I'm not usually an anxious person at all but I am finding myself feeling more stressed and frustrated lately. Where & when is this going to end?? (sorry, I know nobody really knows the answer)

Would closing the off licenses ( as they did in South Africa ) so home parties wouldn't be happening be a better idea ?
They could keep the pubs and restaurants open as they are "policed".

I doubt they'll close off licences, there'd be huge public unrest. The government know people are frustrated as it is, their grip on all this is quite tenuous and all of this hinges on public compliance. Need to keep some booze out there to keep people happy, as terrible as that is!

@LifeInAHamsterWheel I agree. I’d rather just hear what the decision is than deal with all the uncertainty. The constant will they- won’t they is very difficult.

I’m struggling with decision overload at the moment. Ds has a cold earlier in the week (just snotty so should attend school according to hse guidelines) and I’d have rather kept him off but with the likelihood of missed days I sent him. Now he has a cough, which he always has at the tail end of a cold, so he has to stay home. If I get him tested he can go back but he has asd and it’s going to be a nightmare, and while we might manage it once, it’s not going to happen a second time without serious force. So I’m just holding him off for now, but should I keep dd home as well? One part of me is saying he’s perfectly fine, and following a well worn pattern for a cold. The other part is full of what ifs, and should I’s. The school defer all judgement to the gp. The gp won’t see anyone without a test. I’ve already had to keep the dc off while I waited for a test for a breathing problem that was obviously caused by a particular event. I don’t want to be taking up tests unnecessarily but but but.

Oh god @thelegohooverer I don't know what I'd do. How old is he? Are you at home with him or do you have to take time off work? It's such a mess. My friends dd entire year has been sent home to be tested as one of their classmates has tested positive. We're only half way through September and already so much disruption. I don't know how we're going to make it through the winter!

If a test is going to cause problems for your DS I'd be inclined to keep him at home for now as you're fairly sure the cough is "normal" (for him) and only get him tested if you really feel it's necessary.

Interesting that Paul Reiid, head of the HSE had been informally asked by UK authorities if the HSE could help out the NHS re testing.
I never, ever thought that would happen.

One of the president's dogs has died, I hate this year!
I think a lot of university staff were doing lab work, so there is no real way to help out, the Irish system is at capacity.

I know, rip Síoda

I really feel for all the restaurants in Dublin with no outdoor seating and full fridges of stock that had to close this weekend. Must be so disheartening for all involved. Hope people stay behind them and order takeaways / deliveries.

Yes, I hope so too. What a nightmare for them. I saw some support for them on Twitter, so fingers crossed people will do that.

Last week on this thread posters wrote ( in despair ) of the mixing and mingling of people at house meet ups and parties.
Stupid and selfish behaviour.

They were right to be anxious and now Dublin is on Level 3.

I'm going to order online from my favourite pubs and restaurants where possible. It's dh's birthday on Sunday week and I would have taken him out for dinner but I see Johnny foxes is doing home collections and deliveries so am going to order that for his birthday. Anywhere we have eaten out has felt very safe in terms of sd so I would be surprised if restaurants especially are the cause, more likely people meeting up as it is much harder to remember to maintain social distancing in someone's house than it is with constant visual reminders and restrictions in public places. I see that Tallaght has the highest rates but I tend to do my shopping in the square and everyone there is wearing a face mask and sd is being imposed. My kids have been mixing with a much wider base since returning to school and with kids it can be asymptotic so easier to spread with poorer traceability. I do take your point about the rest of the country not being in the same position but Dublin is much more densely populated so the opportunities for transmission must be much higher.

What's going on now with the teachers threatening strike? I thought they wanted the kids back in the classroom, I thought they were saying that children's education was been ruined by keeping them home.

I could paper my walls here with covid plans the schools sent us, then daily and weekly emails telling us how ontop of things they were.

Numerous online forums saying they were following guidelines without issues and our kids were safe and now they're saying classes are packed, no following the guidelines, no extra space. Was this not obvious beforehand? The classes were packed before, they knew they wouldn't have loads of space, why did schools push for re opening if they didn't really want it.

Any one I've spoken to in our schools are adamant that kids are to go to school. Why did they tell us it was safe and now they are saying it's not.

Have you actually read what ASTI have put out? They're not threatening to close schools And schools certainly didn't push for full reopening, that's entirely on the Government.

They have concerns over PPE provision, close contacts, testing turnaround times, physical distancing... basically trying to ensure that schools are as safe as reasonably possible. Those are all very reasonable requests and it shouldn't take one of the unions pushing for it to make any of that happen.

Your school may have sent emails about reopening - I think every school that I know of did - but that doesn't mean the reopening is actually safe. Every school is required to reopen and are just doing the best they can under the circumstances.

Schools could be set to close again as teachers consider strike action over concerns around Covid-19 health and safety measures

The ASTI last night revealed it would be balloting on PPE, social distancing and testing and tracing times

A spokeswoman for the secondary teachers’ union, which has 17,500 members, said: “It could be industrial action up to and including all-out strike

The ASTI’s central executive committee met yesterday and decided
to put the core issues to a vote of members

This is on every news site.

Yes, the government pushed for opening, after schools complained about the length of time they were closed. Parents were complaining too.

Schools were in contact with us re mental health, telling us it was important for schools to re open.

Parents were on forums across Ireland and the UK complaning about their children not getting a proper education, saying how the generation was ruined. Saying it was impossible to home school with jobs, not enough tech at home etc

When we got our covid plans, from 5 schools, one was 48 pages long, I know everyone got a covid plan as they were part of the re opening, they all insist that it was safe to re open, they wouldn't re open if it wasn't safe. The follow ups were all 2 pages long saying how well things are going, how the plans were tweaked but working.

I had many concerns as I know the type of buildings mine are in, I was assured it was safe, I was told the teachers felt safe and they would never operate if conditions were unsafe.

One school, even to the point had me get a full medical assessment for one of my dds as she's health issues and I didn't want to send her back, they wanted this assessment or she went to school. I got the assessment, but I still got emails and calls telling me the school is safe, all parents should reconsider sending their children back.

How come now, so many teachers are saying it's not safe? Surely they knew how much PPE they needed, how big their schools were for social distancing, these are things that had to be ticked off the check list before they were given the go ahead to re open.

We provide masks and sanitizer and wipes for the kids, these are not down to the schools. They put in screens for the teachers, they put in the yellow stickers, I just don't understand why they now feel unsafe. They've had months to get this together. They knew the numbers in each room, they knew how much the government was giving them to make changes. They had more information than parents, if they felt it was unsafe they should not have re opened and told parents it was safe and all within the guidelines.

The government have said they have stocked up on tests, they even refused to help the UK out with testing. Everyone knew there wouldn't be testing for every cough, it would be a case of showing a couple of signs and then refered for testing, they put in place pods and bubbles and strict rules regarding these. They said this would make things safer and more manageable, but clearly not.

I wasn't happy sending mine back, I knew there would be issues. I listened to the schools telling me how safe it is, I put my trust in them. It's just now a surprise to read that schools are not happy and don't feel safe.

Yeah, that doesn't say that ASTI are closing schools now, does it. It says that they are balloting on action up to and including strikes, due to safety concerns. They have very legitimate concerns and while I doubt immediate strike is their preferred response, it is an option on the table. No doubt they will seek meetings with government in the coming days.

I think your misconception here is that schools had to be signed off as fit to open. Not the case, schools were told that they would be reopening and given an extremely woolly set of guidelines around that. There has been no signing off on the plans and it is extremely open to interpretation. You mention that your school has screens and children bringing in sanitisers - do you know the guidelines tell schools not to have children bring in individual sanitisers? And that screens are not mandatory? In fact, the initial guideline even said that Covid couldn't transfer through air which went against most international research at the time. Schools have essentially been left to build the plane whilst flying it.

There has been huge concern among teachers since the roadmap was published. Don't ask me why ASTI are balloting now instead of earlier - I think they may have thought that people/media would see the huge holes in the plan themselves.

I think every teacher is glad to be back to work but there are huge issues around school safety. Reclassifying very high risk teachers as high risk and ordering them back to work, not providing PPE for staff or students, buildings incapable of physical distancing, very little info on infections or close contacts...it has been a constant drip drip drip. These are all very legitimate concerns and no, they have not had months to put this together. The roadmap was released in August and schools scrambled to do what they could in a very short timeframe. The staff at yours may feel safe to return (or management may be plamásing you) but they were not given a choice in returning to work.

Why should ASTI not ballot on strike action? They are there to represent their members and if the members feel that the workplace isn't reasonably secure I think they have a duty to bring it up. Just a shame the other two unions are toothless.

And as a final note: they have exactly the same amount of advice as you do, in the same timeframe. All roadmaps for reopening have been publically available since they were published (again noting that they had weeks to adhere to these, not months). Parents should be encouraged to read the roadmap themselves and make their own minds up but ASTI are not the villain here.

I did actually say threatening to strike.

So teachers are not voting on safety and PPE and strike?

I'm not surprised at all. I think that there are legitimate concerns. To my mind, what is deemed a close contact of a case is a huge issue. I assumed at the start of the month that if there were a confirmed case in a class, that the class and teacher would be considered as close contacts and isolate. In primary, the whole class should be isolated. It's more complicated I know, at second level, but there seems to be a huge amount of uncertainty and secrecy around this aspect of managing the spread of the virus. As a parent, I feel very uncertain about this and if I can understand why teachers feel insecure and worried as numbers are getting higher.

This back-to-school plan was driven by the government with instructions to the boards of management to make it work. As far as I know, there was little or no consultation with principals beforehand (I'm on the BoM for my DD's primary school). Just a set of guidelines and get on with it.
There are no screens in either of my children's schools, by the way. Our primary invested in masks/visors for teachers and sanitiser ahead of government funding.

I think that teachers want to do their best and do their job. However, if the government is determined to keep schools open at the risk of teachers' and students' health, the unions are going to get vocal about it.

FuzzyBeag is spot on with what they say. There was no consultation with schools and precious little specific guidance given. Have you seen the roadmap? I mean properly looked at it? I'd really encourage you to check out their diagrams of seating charts for a laugh. The department created huge classrooms for their demo diagrams and even they can't get the proper spacing in.

ASTI are right to be concerned about school safety - it's not like they are asking for a lot here, testing turnaround times are a basic - and they should not be painted as trying to close down schools. If schools close, that's the fault of the government - whether through industrial action over safety concerns, through outbreaks or simply not having enough healthy staff to open. The unions should not be blamed for this. Their concern is their members health and if the government refuse to deal with them, I fully support them moving to a strike.

Tbqh one of the biggest issues here is decades of underfunding in education. Small classrooms, huge class sizes, lack of bathrooms and sinks etc...not something that any school could fix in the few weeks they were given. No matter how much money was thrown at them. But of course, it's easiest to blame teachers and unions.

Yes, I do agree with what you are saying.

What I'm trying to say is, we were lied to by schools. We were under the impression that schools were safe to return to. We were told by principals and teachers that they felt safe, the school was safe, pupils were to return. Never once did any of our schools say things would not be safe, or they didn't feel safe.

These were my concerns when I contacted schools, lack of toilets, lack of sinks, small classrooms, overcrowding, no proper lunch space, no covered outdoor space etc but I was told it was safe, they had plans in place to keep pupils and staff safe, they were all happy to return, I was made out to be overreacting, other parents were told the same and anyone who raised a question was shut down and told it was safe to return. I didn't want to send mine back. I wasn't happy sending them into the unknown.

So of course it's all a shock to hear how afraid teachers are and how bad things are. When you're told something constantly by schools you believe it.

I think principals and teachers felt that they had no other option, unfortunately. And tbh there's not a lot that the individual school can do to make it safer. They can't build extra bathrooms/ bigger classrooms and they have been told they're to have all students in full time. I think a lot of schools just reopened and hoped that they wouldn't be the first ones to close. No doubt they were delighted to see the kids too but they're rolling the dice, I suppose.

Anecdotal but I know many staff who went into the year saying "I'll be pleased if we get to Hallowe'en..." Have they said a word of this to parents? No. I'm hoping for Christmas myself but not confident.

The other thing is that you don't know what's going on behind the scenes there. Some principals treat their schools like personal fiefdoms and staff can't speak out of line. They may say they're feeling safe to be back but that may not be the truth. ASTI are voicing what a lot of teachers feel.

Very interesting points. I think in my case, the principals of the schools my kids go to said that they were delighted to welcome all students back and that their schools were complying with government guidelines and making the necessary adjustments. I think they were careful not to make promises about children's safety. They know they can't guarantee that there won't be a case. It's a numbers game and most classes have nearly thirty children in them, thinking of primary especially. I totally agree about underfunding in education now coming back to bite us.

Yes indeed, SionnachRua, many teachers wouldn't have a conversation about this in the staffroom. There is an element of toeing the line in some schools. Your comment about the principal's personal fiefdom made me smile. I worked as a substitute teacher a long time ago :) I came across a couple of principals to whom this definitely applied!

Some terrible places out there unfortunately. I know of one school - I won't say where but it's infamous among teachers ime - where the principal gets a horde of NQTs every year. It is such an awful, suffocating place to work that most of them leave after a year. A couple of friends of mine did a year when they graduated and then left, claiming to be moving back home/ to Dubai. She rang them and said "if I get any local principals ringing me asking about you, I'll make sure you never work around here again".

I'm sure most schools are nowhere near as bad as that though tbh! Very extreme case!

Oh my @SionnachRua.
He/She sounds awful.
I'd love to know the area.

All NI under new restrictions from 6p.m tomorrow. No households to mix indoors except where a till’s rising I suppose.