Friends with money

[the7Vabo]

I’m middle aged, married, two kids, mortgage. We are probably higher middle income, between us we make gross £90k ish. I’m the higher earner.

The problem is that while I feel we are far from poor our social group is rich. We were out for a meal recently with a group of friends & they split the bill & it was eye watering for us. It’s awkward because I don’t want be be the only couple in a big group asking to go to a cheaper restaurant. I don’t feel anyone should have to constrain their choices based on our income. It does leave us in a position where we either spend more than we can afford or miss out.

Im also in general a bit gloomy about money. I know on a rationale level that we aren’t badly off. Our outgoings are high. We live a nice life although not a particularly luxe one. Anytime we splash out the chunk it takes out of our very small pot of savings upsets me.

I just feel a bit joyless. I don’t want to be, I want to be grateful for what I have and consistently mindful that others are so much worse off, but I’m really struggling mentally.

I find chats about money with friends and family quite awkward. Everyone’s situations will be different. We have a good joint income but high bills, so not much spare cash floating about or savings. I tend to suggest free or cheap socialising options and if there is chat about a group outing/holiday of any kind I try to indicate financial max so that we don’t end up spending more than we can afford- or we just politely decline. Hope you can find some way of suggesting less expensive options with your friends - or a way of dropping finances into conversation so they are aware of your situation. If you go along with expensive dinner options etc they probably don’t have any idea that you are finding it tricky financially. Working and having young children is pretty hard going at times so can understand you wanting nice breaks from the daily routine but I guess it’s just trying to find ways of doing that that are comfortable financially too x

Another one a bit puzzled by the 90k income and having to pay for meals out of savings. Your take home must be close to 6k. How much are you keeping your small savings pot at? A lot of people have no savings.

Surely you’re not out eating/drinking like that every week? If you are then you need to suggest going to peoples houses instead. Taking turns, it’s nicer than going out IMO and MUCH cheaper!

If you’re in the preschool childcare years then I do understand it’s tough, our childcare bill was more than our mortgage for many years. But it’s only a short period of time.

I always took comfort in the fact that some of my so called rich friends had everything on finance and we’re mortgaged up to the hilt. You can’t know that none of your friendship group aren’t in that position.

Do,you have a really big mortgage op? Average child care costs in Ireland are very well known. So if there isn’t any debt, then it can only be mortgage and maybe cars ? You keep saying you have very high outgoings. So there needs to be something else in there other than childcare causing you to need to live hand to mouth like this.

Watch the news about Ukraine.
Volunteer for a food bank or homeless shelter.
Read the statistics on the % of people in developing countries who don’t have easy access to a toilet or who die due to a lack of clean water or vaccinations.

You’ll soon get over yourself.

I don't understand your post, are you saying the childcare isn't expensive in Ireland? Because it is very expensive.

I have the same as I am a single parent of 3 and my friends are all married with 2 kids each - we probably all earn the same individually but of course I have much less disposable income.

This is how I handle it:

I don't go out to restaurants at all if I can help it - always suggest a meal at home, either mine or theirs, and make it bring a dish. If I am cooking for the event I'll made pasta/garlic bread or indian curry and rice as the cheapest options that are still tasty and dinner-party-worthy.

If I am going out, I have sometimes messaged ahead and say I'll be there a bit later don't wait for me, and then I will join them for either just mains or a dessert. I will then always pay for just my share (this bit can be awkward and I don't always like doing it but nobody seems to care/take offence!).

I did get stung once at a bigger get together when I had starters only and had to leave early, and agreed to sort out the bill later, only to be charged equally when they had all been drinking - I was super annoyed but it wasn't worth arguing over as it was such a large group and I didn't want to cause waves. But lesson learnt - if I am leaving early, I will pay my share at the till before I leave (and not embarrassingly at the table) and then just message the group later to say that I have paid.

I'm meeting them next week for an evening event, and they have just suggested meeting beforehand for dinner. I have said I will be working late and will come straight to the event, so I can eat at home instead of eating out.

Similarly I am meeting work colleagues for dinner next week, and I will eat at home and just say I can't make it till Xpm because of the children, and will then just have dessert with them.

In between I will pop to friends for a quick cup of tea or they will pop to mine for tea and a catch up.

It sucks to be devious about it, but I do want to retain these friendships so this works as a nice compromise. Hopefully a similar approach could work for you.

The average child care costs out outwith Dublin is 800-900. Which leaves the op up to 4- 4.5 available for everything else . But she’s so skint she needs to take the money for her meal out out of savings.

HTH

If it were me there are 2 things I would do.
1: Be honest and straight up ask for alternatives - lunch is often cheaper then dinner, go to one of their houses and have a takeaway etc. They have been your friends for 30 years they aren't suddenly going to say well actually we don't want to hang out with you because you have less then us! If they do then they definitely aren't friends!

2: Re-examine all your finances one evening with a spreadsheet! Go through each line of bank statements work out if contracts are coming to an end, insurance to be negotiated. Do you have subscriptions which can be cut etc etc. Do this on all accounts including individual if you have them.
But also do this regularly every 2 months ideally.
In terms of costs energy for example submitting regular readings and using an online adjustment to DD can bring it down.
Do you have any expensive finance agreements that are coming to an end? Anything with interest accruing which can be switched to a 0% etc. Are you buying lunches everyday, what are your phone contracts and can you switch to sim only etc

It's daunting at first but you might find savings to be had! Everything from doing a shop every 10-11 days rather then every week to getting rid of things you don't use or need. Also use vinted for things like clothes!

You have a good family income and some tweeks on spending might save you alot!
We have slightly less as a joint income and save just under a third of our salaries a month (this is with 2 children at nursery)- we are able to do this because we keep spending in check but also regularly examine all bills and do a lot of free stuff! We now also have friends over for dinner rather then going out!

If they were decent friends you would feel comfortable enough to speak to them about it and they would understand and accept
your situation. I would definitely feel ok speaking to any of my friends if I couldn’t afford something and would probably say to them to go without me, but I’m quite confident that most of them would suggest an alternative which would suit all of us as I would do with them. That’s what friendship
is about.

I'm not sure if you meant to say outside or within Dublin? I live in Cork and we pay €700 for 3 days a week. Also, I don't think OP has said what her take home pay is? €90k isn't some huge income, it's just 2 people earning the average wage. Once you factor in pension contributions and possibly BIK for health insurance it drops quickly. We earn 130k in my household and take home around €6300.

Just to add... a few people have quoted a net income of circa £6k from circa £90k.
This isnt correct. Its much closer to £5k ( if that). Just wanted to emphasise this point.

I can totally relate and understand the posters position. We are in a very similar boat. Best option is to not attend every dinner invite or to offer to host. Thats how we play the game.

It’s correct for Irish tax rates and assuming 45 each. The op hasn’t clarified the differential between her and her husband

You sound lovely . Can you suggest you meet for a late breakfast?

Would you say that if I was worried about losing friends because I couldn’t have children. No of course you wouldn’t. But when money is the root cause I need to “get over myself.”

I have watched the news about Ukraine, donated to those living in Ukraine & I also donate locally.

I do wonder how you time to lecture me given all the good deeds you must be busy doing.

To answer people’s questions, we have small children and associated childcare costs. We don’t live rurally so they are higher than the €700-€900 mentioned. We also didn’t buy at the bottom of the market, and we borrowed as much as we could so our mortgage is quite high.
We don’t have any other significant borrowings.
We also have different types of insurance, fairly high utility bills, etc.
i suspect we are leaking money on food, by poor planning & end up throwing stuff out which is terrible.
We don’t save a huge amount and our pension situation isn’t great.

I understand that a lot of people see our combined income & find it triggering, but it is as others have pointed out marginally above the average wage. We both work full time & I spent a many years training.

I have a sense of perspective. I’m well aware than others have bigger problems. I’m also very tired at the moment. Work is stressful and there are times when I’d like to feel it was worth it more. I’d like to feel I had to do X,Y and Z and that situation was awful but it gives us something back that makes it worth it, and I don’t feel that at the moment. That group of friends have been an outlet to have fun with but they are abnormally well off and it gives a false sense of perspective that I’m aware of on a rational level but when I’m with them I can struggle sometimes.

OP some of these comments are ridiculous but your response is a bit silly here...

No judgement from me op. I’ve been where you are. We would be rhe higher earners now, well we are. But back when we had child care costs our earnings were lower and about rhe same as yours and we also had a huge mortgage. We were really up against it to be Honest. So I get the resentment. We had no savings.

however we didn’t go places we couldn’t afford and we socialised in different ways, inviting friends over or going to them etc. we were also very upfront about it and didn’t try to pretend otherwise. If we did want to go and it was expensive we just suggested another venue, no one gave a shit as they were our friends, we also missed out on quite a lot of things like weekends away . We didn’t compete and were open about it. I think that’s the difference.

gradually it changed, child care costs reduced, earnings went up and now we are rhe highest earners, but we still do things to meet the income level of rhe lower earners in our group. We spend many a weekend at a crappy holiday park or have dinner in spoons. Smuggle in our own vodka to gigs. 😂

however I’d never invite any of mine to an expensive restaurant or hotel. Because I know some couldn’t afford it, we are all quite open about finance. We do the expensive stuff on our own time and as a family.

one friend did say the last time after eating in spoons, I want to go to a decent restaurant next time, I’m not doing this every time, and I get that. Maybe we go too far the other way to try to be inclusive. So I’m not sure we do it right either. We deliberately book so every one can come. The group includes two single parents on part time work on nmw. The disparity is huge but it’s not an issue.

rhe issue I think is your friends don’t know and you don’t want to admit it and you’re spending money you can’t afford.

I get that but I’m sick of these comments tbh.

Thanks for your post it’s very helpful.

I agree with your last point. I don’t want to admit it for a few reasons. Firstly if I’m honest because it feels like we aren’t as successful as others and actually saying as much feels a bit cringe. I have what would be considered a good job but I’m not at CEO or investor level in fact I’m miles from it like most people. Also just talking about money in general including about how you don’t have as much as someone also feels cringe. Id also be talking to the wives who don’t work so that feels awkward to, discussing the money their husband earns. I know that they can feel judged for not working as one of them recently mentioned it.

Secondly because I don’t want to feel that I’m holding anyone back from what they want to do. My friends work very hard & they like to treat themselves in their downtime which they don’t get a lot of. Like what you were saying about a friend not wanting to go to Spoons everytime. The balance to that I suppose is that they do tons of stuff without us. When we go on holidays it’s our annual holiday but holiday no. 3 for them.

The next time someone has suggested a cheaper place as they really like it which is good!

I don’t know if I feel resentment as such, I mainly feel exhausted. I have a lot of responsibility in my job & I’ve started to more & more become fixated on what I get paid for it. I’m constantly asked to go over and above including people on higher salaries than me asking to run things by me, but there’s no chance of a salary increase. Even if there was I feel a bit depleted. I do resent people on more money than me asking me to look at stuff for them or check the work of people reporting into them. I always tell myself I’m going to look for something else but don’t actually do much about it and also have a sense of better the devil you know!

@the7Vabo sounds like you need a break.

It's a shame that you can't talk to your friends about your situation, you never know they might give you the support you need.

I would absolutely help my friend out if in your situation. Whether it's a listening ear, an offer to go over a CV, put some feelers out for a job for you or a recruiter etc

Try not to box yourself into a lonely place with your work troubles. Find a non judgmental friend or family member, have a rant and come up with a plan. I'm in job situation where I'm not unhappy but not happy and I'm already brushing up my CV and networking a little just in case.

Even if you spend a few minutes here and there waiting in the car or School pick up updating linked in profiles, signing up to job alerts at indeed etc, you'll feel like you're taking control.

Enjoy that meal out - maybe mention that you're not happy in your job to your friends and see if they can help you. You need a little support right now.

Make new friends or just stop trying to keep up appearances and say look money is tight we can't afford this place how about pizza hut or whatever

I get it as when you're in that bubble and constantly trying to keep up, it can make things feel very hard. Two of my close friends are considerably more wealthy than I am.

I think it's unhelpful to compare up or down. Up and you're lacking, down and you can then heap guilt on yourself. You need to come to a point where you are grateful for what you have. Not because it's more than some and despite that it's less than others. Not an easy mindset to shift into, but focus on what you can control.

You can eat at these restaurants, just not as frequently. So work your budget to include money for socialising, so you can do it without fretting.

Maybe have a plan to move to a new job. Think about how you'll budget and what you'll prioritise when childcare costs reduce. Keep your focus on what you can influence and take action.

It really does help to give to others as you've already said you do. You are in a fortunate position in a lot of ways. I don't say this to make you feel bad, just sometimes getting out of your head and shifting perspective can help. The circle you socialise in is vastly different to how most people live, so your view is skewed by this.

Don't forget hard work and well paid is only one combination. Lots of people work their socks off in jobs that are never going to pay as much as your friends. Their free time isn't more valuable than yours, you're all working hard. So I'm sure a cheaper restaurant once in a while is a compromise that can be made.

I feel you. I have a friend who I love to dine with. She is always suggesting expensive restaurants, I think just because the doesn't know other places.

So here is a cheeky advice from me, that I use all the time with her and with others:

Don't suggest a place because it is cheaper, describe it as more exciting.

"Wouldn't it be nice with real Italian pizza today"
"This new Lebanese restaurant got splendid reviews"

etc. etc. Be prepared with these suggestions. They always fall for it ;-)

I think anyone paying childcare isn’t necessarily having the lifestyle they’d expect for a given income level. Once you’re out of the childcare phase you’ll probably feel much better off and gain a bit more perspective.

I’d also say you absolutely should have paid your share plus tip when you left and not been too embarrassed to say that. Your friends shouldn’t have let you subsidise their drinking especially if they know you are not as well off as them.