covid coming back - but how bad is this wave?

[K73c]

It's been a while since I posted . Developed sudden flu symptoms in the night & tested positive to covid this morning. Seeing more twitter - X re new wave, new variant. I know cases were still happening but wondered how many are getting it now - and how last

Again patronising as fuck.

are there any studies being done considering the outcomes of post omicron mutations in the unvaccinated, recently vaccinated or twice vaccinated?

what I often wonder; as a dumb and stupid lay person, is whether we can get further reassurance via studies that the vaccinated do better than the unvaccinated when exposed to post omicron variants

I don’t understand why that is a difficult or controversial question. In particular, my concern relates to initial concerns I had (as a dumb non scientist) that the response to newer mutates variants may not be as strong as people infected naturally.

don’t understand why that is a difficult or controversial question
But no one has said this @BeethovenNinth ? Indeed the entire conversation has been posters trying to understand what you are looking for. I'm not sure why you're being so defensive to people who are just trying to work out what you're asking so they can give you a decent answer.

are there any studies being done considering the outcomes of post omicron mutations in the unvaccinated, recently vaccinated or twice vaccinated?

In particular, my concern relates to initial concerns I had (as a dumb non scientist) that the response to newer mutates variants may not be as strong as people infected naturally.

This doesn't make complete sense to me, but based on the the rest of your post I'm assuming you're asking why no-one has looked into how vaccination status from the initial roll out (so ~2 years ago) is associated with outcomes from infection currently.

This is because what you're asking for isn't logical - it would not be possible to conduct a study looking at what you're asking for, nor would it make sense to do so.

Firstly you're suggested that immunity is a "locked in" binary process - someone either has immunity from a vaccine or an infection. This is not true. Vaccination does not stop someone from gaining immunity from subsequent infections - instead it just allows them to gain this in a safer way as they have a level of existing protection before exposure. There have been many many papers published looking at hybrid immunity, which pretty everyone who has been vaccinated now has. Secondly, we know immunity wanes very quickly - protection from a vaccine 2 years ago is unlikely to be having significant benefits to currently circulating variants.

Vaccines do not cause someone to have a worse outcome when later infected with the pathogen months or years after it was recieved. There is potentially some risk of increased symptoms if you are infected & vaccinated simultaneously, but this would be something that occurs at the time.

As has been said previously, these fake claims are something that has been pushed by for-profit anti-vaccine groups for decades (long before COVID) and continues to be promoted as a way of making money and scaring people from being vaccinated.

@BeethovenNinth

I don’t understand why that is a difficult or controversial question. In particular, my concern relates to initial concerns I had (as a dumb non scientist) that the response to newer mutates variants may not be as strong as people infected naturally.

Thank you for clarifying the issue. That's all I was asking - it just wasn't clear what you were suggesting in your original post.

If the implication here is that natural infection may provide greater lasting immunity - particularly to new variants - than vaccine-induced immunity, then what are your thoughts about hybrid immunity?

I didn't have too much trouble finding this article, although it obviously does focus on Omicron. (The Lancet, May 2023).

www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(22)00801-5/fulltext

ocaptain I don’t have any thoughts. I just want to see the results of studies I hope are being done. And of course they can and should be done.

(I’m too stupid to understand *biochemist”’s confident assertions)

There's no need to keep saying you're stupid - no-one's stupid here.

TBF, Biochemist is only trying to understand what it is you are actually implying. That wasn't clear from the outset.

There will always be people who dismiss and deny, who rage against and sneer at people taking health crisis like COVID seriously. There's no arguing with stupid.

we asked about C19 vx in Boots this summer and they said there were no plans for a vaccination programme. That position has now changed, our GP surgery is starting a combined programme of flu and C19 two jabs same day sometime in autumn free on the NHS for 50+ and CV CEV. My team member at work had their's in July due to being CV.

And they are being done? It’s very hard to understand exactly where you are coming from.

this new ‘pirola’ strain was only picked up on it July and other cases identified in August at various points across the globe. Given the reduction in testing and surveillance, both of which still exist but no where near the scale they were at in 2020/21, means there’s a much smaller pool of data now to gauge the impacts of a new (heavily mutated) version on vaccinated and none vaccinated alike. That means it’ll take time.

you posted earlier how it’s ridiculous that after three years that you can’t pose a simple question. Well in that three years I’m not sure how it can have escaped your notice that Covid has become heavily divisive and political along with the same explanations over and over again to people demanding that there should be answers to their questions right now or it’s evidence of incompetence or conspiracy.

taking offence because someone questions your angle is unnecessary and starts looking aggressive. You’re clearly not stupid which is why you’ve received actual attempts at explanations. The self depreciating quips to make out you’re the injured party do nothing to assure anyone your line of questioning has no underlying motive tbh.

Take from that what you will.

@BeethovenNinth I think this is a tad unnecessary

I'm incredibly cautious when it comes to interpreting research and there are always caveats. My post was trying to explain why it isn't scary that the specific studies you think you should be done have not been (as long as I've got the right end of the stick as to what you think you should be tested).

Really, it was specifically in response to your post that vulnerable people who have had repeated vaccines should be worried because something had not been tested and therefore there are questions over safety.

If it didn't make sense then that's my fault and nothing to do with anyone's intelligence - very happy to try again and repost some of it.

I just want to see the results of studies I hope are being done. And of course they can and should be done.

Gah - so I'll say again @BeethovenNinth

You think vaccines given in 2020-2021 are causing people to be more ill from COVID when infected now.

You think we should be testing whether immunity from a vaccine given 2-3 years ago, removing effects of immunity from infections, causes worse outcomes when exposed to a current variant of SARS-COV-2 .

This does not make sense - trying to design such a study would not give meaningful results, nor is it a good use of resources when there is no rationale for doing it.

Gave more detail in my original reply which I'm happy to rephrase if it was jumbled.

you posted earlier how it’s ridiculous that after three years that you can’t pose a simple question. Well in that three years I’m not sure how it can have escaped your notice that Covid has become heavily divisive and political along with the same explanations over and over again to people demanding that there should be answers to their questions right nowor it’s evidence of incompetence or conspiracy.

Also the classic "just asking questions" when it becomes clear someone has no interest in listening to or replying to answers @Cornettoninja

Depressingly, I've just seen that a very famous, very monetised youtuber recently released a video making the kinds of claims that are coming up on the thread, so that explains where it's coming from.

As media reporting in COVID increases the more of this we'll see....

This really is a recycled fake claim that started in 2020 for COVID - I'm pretty sure this regular poster has had explanations to it before. A vaccine can cause side effects, they can not work that well against disease. What they CANNOT do is predispose you to becoming more ill when infected later with the virus.

I'm frustrated at the (what feels like deliberate at this point) scaring of people who do need repeated innoculations to minimise their risk from COVID.

And @BeethovenNinth it really is worth pointing out AGAIN that this isn't a question!

It's a vague scary statement with no actual information or question that people could try and give you some info for. It's something that can cause anxiety for vaccinated people or could scare someone off getting a booster despite it being safer for them to do so.

This is why posters get frustrated. As many said, if you'd actually asked a "simple question" to begin with, you wouldn't have got replies like you did.

So the upshot is there is no need for these studies, because there is no plausible way future variants might cause issues for those vaccinated against initial variants.

this is why i must be be plain dumb. To me it makes no sense not to check this with an evolving novel virus. It’s one of the first things I would check. I would be checking with each variant if I could.

this is why I’m not a scientist.

I have skin in the game here too. My elderly mother can’t have any more covid vaccinations, fared well against omicron. Hasn’t been vaccinated since 2021 and is trying to work out what to do this winter. Don’t ask her to ask her GP - the GP tells her she shouldn’t have any more mRNA vaccines and yet she worries.

I remain unvaccinated and well. Friends around me who are vaccinated seem to be getting covid more than me. This is of course anecdotal. But I can’t find the studies on post omicron variants to consider any of it.

And yes, I do ponder in my dumb, vaccine questioning way - as I ildly wonder if the earth is perhaps flat and if the king is a lizard, should we be checking this before boosting lower risk people like my elderly mother this winter.

i look forward to more personal attacks for having these thoughts.

Hit the nail on the head here! If it worked we wouldn’t need to be taking any ‘precautions’. All this it stops the severity nonsense, a vaccine is meant to stop you getting an illness not oh you can still get it and spread it but it might be a little bit less bad. They don’t work effectively. I understand those who are worried about covid due to core morbidities but you can not ignore the fact the vaccines have been a big con. The whole thing is completely suspicious we have been lied to over and over. Told it was the wet markets when now it is has been admitted it was almost certain to have been a lab leak. Instead of fighting amongst ourselves we should be wanting answers. Why were the us and china making a virus , was the intention a potential chemical warfare was it deliberately released or an accident. Why was the vaccine allowed to be released so quickly without testing it was realised under emergency order not the usual testing. Drugs companies made a fortune from the vaccines. People not told vitamin D helps and other health advice to help just to have vaccine and listen to the government who thought the virus was so dangerous they were having parties. So many questions not conspiracy! We are entitled to ask why when people have died from the virus and the vaccines. It is not us citizens that are to blame and the government love that we take pot shots at each other instead of asking the real questions of them and thier response to this virus. The kids have been effected badly mental illness ED’s and these kids would not have been sick from getting covid. It’s all very depressing from every angle.

😂😂😂😂😂

Vaccines can mitigate, not necessarily prevent. My Dss got mumps, despite being vaccinated. Just a much milder case.

Hit the nail on the head here! If it worked we wouldn’t need to be taking any ‘precautions’. All this it stops the severity nonsense, a vaccine is meant to stop you getting an illness not oh you can still get it and spread it but it might be a little bit less bad.

Endless, recycled nonsense that has been addressed over and over again @Whippetlovely

We vaccinate for rabies yet you'll still die if you don't get to a hospital and get follow up treatment after exposure

The hep b course is (at least) 3 jabs and some people don't even mount a immune response and have to rely on other protection if exposed (I'm one of them!)

We have a 'flu vaccine yet it's still required annually, we need to additional precautions, and vaccinate subsets of low risk populations to add to the protection.

Vaccines are a public health tool that reduce risk, they are not a panacea So so tired of this of this nonsense filtering down from people who are making. a career out of doing so.

Hit the nail on the head here! If it worked we wouldn’t need to be taking any ‘precautions’. All this it stops the severity nonsense, a vaccine is meant to stop you getting an illness not oh you can still get it and spread it but it might be a little bit less bad well that’s how a fair few vaccines perform. Sterilising would have been an absolute bonus and enabled us to seriously think about being able to eradicate , at least regionally or target outbreak areas They don’t work effectively they work well enough to lift restrictions aimed at curbing the spread and strain on healthcare. They’ve enabled us to ‘live with’. I understand those who are worried about covid due to core morbidities but you can not ignore the fact the vaccines have been a big con not according to the numbers of hospital admissions/mortality. The whole thing is completely suspicious we have been lied to over and over. Told it was the wet markets we were not definitively told this. It’s was a theory based on knowledge of how viruses jump between species. See bird flu for similar concerns when now it is has been admitted it was almost certain to have been a lab leak ’almost certain is also not definitive. Why don’t you consider that to be a falsehood?. Instead of fighting amongst ourselves we should be wanting answers. Why were the us and china making a virus , was the intention a potential chemical warfare was it deliberately released or an accident I’m not fighting? Why are you? What difference does it make to the actual circulating virus? Why was the vaccine allowed to be released so quickly without testing it was realised under emergency order not the usual testing did you not consider conditions in 2020/21 an emergency?. Drugs companies made a fortune from the vaccines yup. That’s how we’ve set up a capitalist society. People not told vitamin D helps and other health advice I knew, when I was employed by the NHS and they tested all staff to see if they had been infected they also tested vitamin D, it wasn’t them who made me aware of the importance of vitamin D and a healthy immune systems though. That was widely publicised. Still is. to help just to have vaccine and listen to the government who thought the virus was so dangerous they were having parties Thats because they’re corrupt dickheads. Not because of any special scientific knowledge they have. So many questions not conspiracy! with lots of answers. Just none you’re personally happy with. At least accept that your only happy with answers than confirm what you already think We are entitled to ask why when people have died from the virus and the vaccines of course you are, but the result of that is answers you should at least pay attention to. It is not us citizens that are to blame and the government love that we take pot shots at each other instead of asking the real questions of them and thier response to this virus have you contributed to the inquiry? The kids have been effected badly mental illness ED’s and these kids would not have been sick from getting covid. affected. Not effected. Other than that I don’t disagree. It’s probably not particularly helpful to them to view every fact available with suspicion either is it? It’s all very depressing from every angle.

It's interesting that you say about the impact on MH - I had it for the first time last week and was in bed for four days with flu like symptoms (fine, would prefer not to have it but no big deal).

However, I have pre-existing MH issues and ADHD...I've been great for months and it's really knocked me about mentally. Have terrible depression and anxiety which is definitely something to do with the virus...

It's going to take me longer to get over that knock on impact.

Did anyone explain to you why it made you feel suicidal?

It's not something I've seen discussed anywhere else?

So the upshot is there is no need for these studies, because there is no plausible way future variants might cause issues for those vaccinated against initial variants.

Yes.

It's like complaining that no one is looking into the mechanism by which microwaves are causing dementia and that research is focussed on other risk factors instead.

Biologically, what you are suggesting is not plausible @BeethovenNinth . A Instead vaccine safety, efficacy, and effectiveness is continually evaluated using appropriate study designs.

this is why i must be be plain dumb. i look forward to more personal attacks for having these thoughts.

No one has called you "dumb" or "stupid" but it's clear you think nothing of the sort and instead believe you've stumbled across something that thousands of scientists and clinicians have missed. Their collective decades of training and research are meaningless, afterall.

If ten electricians came to my house and advised the wiring was faulty, I'd go ahead and get it fixed. I wouldn't lambast myself for being stupid (because I have no expertise in electronics), I'd accept they know more than me about this one particular thing. I also wouldn't go on the defensive about how they must be wrong.

Don’t ask her to ask her GP - the GP tells her she shouldn’t have any more mRNA vaccines

I find posts like this hard to understand. No HCP is going to blanket advise against "mRNA vaccines". Of course you can have an adverse reaction against a specific vaccine in which case your doctor may advise against having more.

But there is no such thing as reacting badly to mRNA in general - it's just a vector. Your cells are full of endogenous mRNA, busy going about it's daily business.

@wheresmymojo and @TinkerbellefromYorkshire have you looked up Covid psychosis? It’s not (as in the mechanisms that can affect mental health) completely unique to Covid but it’s probably not as noticeable from other viruses due to the prevalence and scrutiny of Covid.

There’s been quite a lot written about covids effect on mental health. Physically as well as societal influences.

Ahem.

Ive had 2 severe reactions to the MNRA vaccines. And have been told not to have any more MNRA specifically by a senior consultant rheumatologist. I’m waiting to see a neurologist, as I’ve had a neuro-immune response. I can still have anti gen vaccines.

l still support vaccination 100%

@Didiplanthis spot on 👏

There is no point having a rationale discussion here. This is why people stop trusting mainstream medicine. It’s why people lose faith in vaccines altogether - because they can’t ask questions or tell their story without ridicule and scoffing which always come from the “scientists”.

why on earth can I tell you my mother was advised to have no more mRNA vaccines? They are new and in both cases - Pfizer and moderna - caused an odd reaction that still hasn’t gone. Why is implausible?

in terms of future variants, I understand the issue is called ADE. Why it is not necessary to check for this with future variants is beyond me. There is no ping discussing it on here.

but I can say this - anyone wringing their hands at the growth in so called anti vaxxers need only look at their own actions and behaviours for why that might be

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.25.21262601v1.full

so it can be discussed, as a way of a brief example

Dd has been told not to have any more covid vaccines. She got a blood clot and nearly died after her last one. I was very pro vaccine up to that point, I volunteered for the trials!