The WhatsApp message leak

[Mycatsgoldtooth]

So, we’ve had the FBI saying it was a lab leak, the leaked messages showing many of the restrictions were for show, stats on the reality of masks being mostly useless unless N95s. Where are all the people that were so upset about anyone saying anything against the government now.

It’s almost as if no one care where the virus came from and how the government reacted. If I’d spent years being terrified and washing my shopping I’d be really pissed off.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/01/untruth-untruth-peddled-justify-great-lockdown-disaster/

@EmmaEmerald i thought the episode was good.

Thanks Buzz
do you have a link for where you found the picture, by any chance?

thank you.

Re painting Hancock as a fall guy, the messages don't put anyone in government in a good light.

Indeed not, and some of the civil servants don't come out looking well either. But it doesn't follow that everyone will be held equally culpable, nor that the Telegraph intend them to be.

The lockdown cost so much. Not sure when we will recover.

@EmmaEmerald @Buzzinwithbez thanks

Going back to the hotel quarantines, they really troubled me at the time. Usually when someone is imprisoned, there are numerous processes in place to give them protections, from the moment of arrest, through the trial proceedings and then while they are in prison itself.

There were none of these legal safeguards for those quarantined. They were, quite literally, imprisoned without trial and with no protections in place. Instead of prison guards there were private security employed by whichever private firms had benefited from government contracts, which led to as we saw actual sexual harrassment of women travellers as well as several cases of dangerous medical negligence.

To find out that those that had implemented the policies found it funny is especially worrying.
I wish to see an enquiy and safeguards in place so that, if a similar situation occurs in future, there are checks and balances in place so that this sort of abuse of powers can't occur again. And it worries me how much Labour rubber-stamped, and how much further they would have gone. The SNP did, and made it clear they would have gone further still if not constrained by Westminster.

Agree with all of this.

Seconded. Also agree with all of @FrostyFifi post

Some more Isabel Oakeshott gems below. As I said before, no one is pro lockdown. I’m also not pro mass deaths as a result if no restrictions.

So I take it you ARE in favour of mass deaths then : so long as the healthy, wealthy and strong continue to thrive? If you are going to make those sweeping assumptions about my supposed ‘love of lockdown’ stance? And then align yourself with the sentiments of reformUK?

Do you agree with these kind of sentiments too:

Tweeting a picture of the empty disabled spaces, she said: “a triumph of political correctness over common sense”. Oakeshott also said the number of spaces was disproportionate “unless the Paralympics are coming to Oxford”.

And then : Parents who routinely fail to give their children breakfast before school are failing woefully in their basic duty as parents. That's all.

Lovely stuff. Clearly giving a GREAT deal of thought there to social inequality.

I think the problem is that a lot of the core Tory vote is more mature people (in terms of years) and whilst certain older people were against draconian measures (like my FIL) I get the gut feeling that a lot of people actually quite liked the curtain twitching on what other people were up to and the rules and queuing etc and I can't say this aspect is party specific as I think it would have been much the same across the board. I think we have to deal with the aftermath and look at how this could be better planned for in the future, look at the medical aspects too now that we know a vaccine doesn't stop you getting it - repeatedly in many cases (I've got long covid so declare that I'm not sure I would have gone beyond the first two given my situation) and make sure we have huge supplies of PPE etc - also compare how other places handled it and what we could learn etc.

Personally I think that’s an abhorrent thing to say, and would want to distance myself fully from Richard Tice, his partner and reformUK.

I’d rather look at examples globally where mass deaths were less, and lockdown implemented with least harm. Finland for example.

@MinkyGreen can't stand the horrible woman but I fully confess to having uttered similar about car parks at various points. In many places it's hugely out of proportion to what is ever used.

@MinkyGreen Well according to you we have to distance ourselves by
a. saying we are pro lockdown.
b. saying we are pro masks
c. not saying anything about what was actually IN the messages but moaning about the messenger.

Im no fan of IO but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

@MinkyGreen yes I do think we have to look at how others managed it. It was def better handled in Denmark - I used to dread coming back to UK in that period.

@MinkyGreen On one of Channel 4s programmes about social housing they went to Finland Their social housing is lovely Lots of space to self isolate

@Crikeyalmighty

Yes but I would completely quell that animalistic and individualistic side to my personality!!

Did you say you experienced lockdown in a different country? Where were you?

@Crikeyalmighty

Ok, so that’s interesting.

To my mind - a balance of avoiding the mass deaths in the early stages of a pandemic with restrictions that are better implemented v’s avoiding the harms caused by lockdown : would be the best strategy.

FFS I am NOT ‘pro lockdown’ and ‘pro masks’. No one bloody wanted them!!! I’m pro avoiding mass deaths - particularly where there is no vaccine to control viral spread.

What is your opinion on the care worker vaccine mandate @MinkyGreen

We were in Copenhagen @MinkyGreen not in the first lockdown , we moved just after, but before any vaccines came on tap. It was handled well I felt. None of this daily bulletin stuff but masks strictly adhered to , Covid passports ( no bars/restaurants /cafes unless you were tested every3 days and had a negative test) - this changed when vaccines came in and then it was either 2 vaccines or negative test less than 72 hours. Shops had people outside making sure masks were worn as did the metro. Hand sanitiser everywhere. Free tests galore on your doorstep. None of this daily mass TV hysteria stuff, just a slot on TV when any changes to rules were coming in. I also didn't see any queuing up outside supermarkets or panic buying, and didn't seem to be the same pressures in A&E or about PPE - although did see once they were getting close to capacity . I am told business was well supported.

Fifi quarantine scared the bejesus out of me.

@Crikeyalmighty

Was lockdown implemented quickly? Was it more decisive and shorter?

Do you feel there was more trust in the government?

@EmmaEmerald my DH was travelling for work from about late 2020 to various countries and how he evaded hotel quarantine I will never know - by the skin of his teeth sometimes.

At least the worst of his worries would have been boredom and shit food though, unlike lone female travellers, people with medical conditions, people with small children etc.

I'm trying to ignore the derailment now, as far as I can see it can be summarised in three words ie discredit the messenger. I'm just going to read/respond to any posts about the actual content of the messages themselves.

@MinkyGreen the first lockdown was about 12 days ahead of uk I believe but was shorter I am told ( we were in uk) by mid May a lot of stuff was open and in July we were over there and it was pretty much as normal , you could go to bars and restaurants etc -second lockdown was in stages- started early December 2020 (indoor shopping centres) and ramped up on Boxing Day - right till sometime in late March 2021. I def thought there was a lot of trust in gvt - but this is a gvt where you get removed if you claim £300 too much on your expenses.

@MinkyGreen we also used to pop to Malmö a lot just over bridge in Sweden and that was interesting as stuff was open there when it wasn't in Copenhagen but for quite a long time they didn't allow travel between the two or they would have been inundated at weekends with Copenhagers as it's only 15 minutes away over the bridge. You didn't need make either but no one looked at you if you used one- Sweden had a kind of personal responsibility view of it. They did offer support and suggested less socialisation but a lot of stuff didn't shut. Overall their figures ended up better than UKs but it's got a lot of space and I personally think a fitter healthier population

@Crikeyalmighty

Thank you for sharing that. That quite a unique perspective you’ve had there. Denmark, Sweden and the UK.