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The WhatsApp message leak

836 replies

Mycatsgoldtooth · 02/03/2023 10:35

So, we’ve had the FBI saying it was a lab leak, the leaked messages showing many of the restrictions were for show, stats on the reality of masks being mostly useless unless N95s. Where are all the people that were so upset about anyone saying anything against the government now.

It’s almost as if no one care where the virus came from and how the government reacted. If I’d spent years being terrified and washing my shopping I’d be really pissed off.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/01/untruth-untruth-peddled-justify-great-lockdown-disaster/

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hamstersarse · 09/03/2023 19:01

It’s also wild how no one ever mentions Africa and restrictions

22% vaccinated too

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 09/03/2023 19:07

MinkyGreen · 09/03/2023 17:37

@BashirWithTheGoodBeard

Hungry : Right Wing, Populist. Didn’t fare well.

Finland : Centre left, regarded as one of best Covid strategies in Europe

“Support for right-wing populist parties in most European countries is associated with more hostile views toward pandemic restrictions. In the Netherlands, those with favorable views of the right-wing populist parties Forum for Democracy (FvD) and Party for Freedom (PVV) are more likely to think restrictions went too far. The pattern among right-wing populist supporters to favor fewer restrictions is also particularly prominent among Alternative for Germany (AfD) supporters in Germany, Lega supporters in Italy and Vox supporters in Spain.”

This isn't proof. There are getting on for two hundred countries in the world and you've cited what, half a dozen. One of which, India, has a right wing government that locked down and so actually undermined your point.

If you think there is a correlation between locking down and place on the political spectrum, that's going to require an analysis of all of them. Not a quote from someone you agree with who doesn't want to talk about the left wing low restriction Swedish government for the same reason you don't, but actual numbers. Should you establish such a correlation, which you won't, it would still be the case that this thread is discussing a right wing lockdown because that is what we had in England.

Mycatsgoldtooth · 09/03/2023 19:13

And I didn’t support the restrictions as I felt that they would cause more long term harm for an illness with a pretty high survival rate for the vast majority of the population. I felt that some sensible restrictions were necessary but it went far beyond what was needed for actual infection control and became about power and optics. Public health was a one track focus on covid and this meant that all other issues are brushed aside leaving problems to fester down the line.

We can see from the messages and the arbitrary nature of the rules and the behaviour of our leaders that a bit of honesty and genuine risk assessment would have been welcome. Instead we got punitive measures that impacted the most vulnerable, nudge units, behavioural psychologists spreading fear and the army monitoring dissenters.

Sweeden did very well, a left wing government. I’d have loved to have been there in lock down.

Florida also did well, a right wing state, and had a control group in California to show that the very strict lock down there did not make a difference to covid deaths
but has led to the state losing a large amount of its population, mass homeless issues and what do you know the architects of that stars response were all caught breaking their own rules..

We had a right wing government that did shockingly in every measure and we are now billions in debt, have thousands of children missing from education and excess death in the under 60’s at a ridiculous level.

Trying to control a virus, which we all eventually got anyway was a folly. A hugely expensive one that made sense early 2020 but by late 2021 was crazy.

our response was based on faulty models, copying china and using fear as coercive tactic. interventions that were not clinically sound (paper masks, testing the asymptomatic, 14 day isolations, not letting people with negative tests visit relatives with negative tests in care homes, not letting people see the bodies of their dead, rule of six, masks to stand up in pub, chaining up swings.. the list could go on forever)

You support lock downs as you were frightened about your nieces and your mum. I understand that. But we wrecked the economy and sentenced a lot of people to a miserable few years for to facilitate that. And not everyone is going to think that sacrifice is worth it. In reality the chances of a child being seriously ill with covid is tiny. Healthy children were not at much risk. Your mum is elderly and frail, she would have been at risk from flu or norivirus if she was having cancer treatment. We can not shut the world because old people are at risk from illness, it’s part of life. A sad part and one, understand the urge to protect her. But the old people in my life were all much more upset my the restrictions then covid. But they were in care homes, essentially imprisoned in solitary confinement at times while being told it was for their own good.

You know someone who died of covid. I know no one even hospitalised with it. My friend was 28 and had a four year old. He hung himself after all his mental health support was stopped and he did not see his parents or child for two months. He did not have a funeral to speak of. If there had been no lock down I do not think he would have died. We have all lost people over this time. It will effect how we see the legitimacy of the interventions.

But my point on starting this thread was to say how lightly the people implementing it took the restrictions and how little care they gave to their long term and short term effects. Mostly because they never had any intention of living by them and they have the fiscal means to avoid many of the lasting consequences. Unlike millions of people dealing with inflation, no hospital care and the other effects we are still living with three years down the line.

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MinkyGreen · 09/03/2023 19:24

@FrostyFifi

Thank you. Yes, so they were pretty unstable politically. Plus an underfunded and inadequate health care system. They went through 2 or 3 different presidents?

Finland:

Finland currently belongs to the countries around the world which is coping best with the coronavirus pandemic

Officials credit the outcome to factors such as early government action, which included a two-month lockdown in March and a ban on travel in and out of the capital.

Since then, society has largely re-opened and an effective test and trace system was developed, revolving around a smartphone app.

The “Corona Flash” application, downloaded 2.5 million times in a country of 5.5 million people, has escaped the privacy or functionality problems that have hit similar initiatives in countries from the UK to Norway.

Like elsewhere in the Nordics, high levels of trust towards authority in Finland have meant that there has been little resistance to the government’s measures.

MinkyGreen · 09/03/2023 19:37

@Mycatsgoldtooth

Thank you for that, and my apologies for insulting you earlier.

I think I was pushed to my limits during Covid. It was certainly not laptops and gardens - it was dealing with adult (and child) nappies, dealing with someone losing large amounts of blood when they went to the toilet, it was seeing that person in distress and pain, and fighting to get her in a hospital. She had an absolutely amazing surgeon who saved her life, in one of the worst hit Covid hospitals in the country. The doctors and nurses there have my full and upmost respect.

I realise this is anecdotal - and people have been through incredible hardship due to lockdowns - and have horrific situations of their own and worse.

I am very interested in the debate. I accept that I need to tone my reactions down.

I agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph.

Mycatsgoldtooth · 09/03/2023 20:01

And minkey I apologies if my tone hasn’t been pleasant with you. It’s been a tough few years and it can be hard to see past your own nose sometimes 💐. I’m glad your mum is doing better.

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BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 09/03/2023 20:18

But my point on starting this thread was to say how lightly the people implementing it took the restrictions and how little care they gave to their long term and short term effects. Mostly because they never had any intention of living by them and they have the fiscal means to avoid many of the lasting consequences. Unlike millions of people dealing with inflation, no hospital care and the other effects we are still living with three years down the line.

Yes, I think if there's one thing we can probably all agree on it's this.

WestwardHo1 · 09/03/2023 20:24

I think actually despite a few heated moments this thread has been one of the more grown up ones about the whole thing, with posters prepared to give and take. Fair play to you @MinkyGreen and @Mycatsgoldtooth

I sincerely hope time and distance will allow this more.

EmmaEmerald · 09/03/2023 20:42

This is a calm and balanced interview which I think will be of interest to people from all POV

EmmaEmerald · 09/03/2023 20:43

It is a long interview but one key thing is I didn't realise Sweden had done their "lessons" report already, which is just as it should be. Apparently lawyers working on our inquiry are on five year contracts to start.

frothytoffee · 09/03/2023 21:11

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 09/03/2023 20:18

But my point on starting this thread was to say how lightly the people implementing it took the restrictions and how little care they gave to their long term and short term effects. Mostly because they never had any intention of living by them and they have the fiscal means to avoid many of the lasting consequences. Unlike millions of people dealing with inflation, no hospital care and the other effects we are still living with three years down the line.

Yes, I think if there's one thing we can probably all agree on it's this.

Wouldn't you say that many of the same issues as apply there (which I agree they did) also apply to many of the people deciding on our current policies (of relying on vaccination and nothing else)?

These are people who are not going to be bankrupted if they get long covid and can't work, people who have access to private healthcare if they or their family members are ill, people who get (or don't need) sick pay when they're ill, who don't work in crowded poorly ventilated factories or schools and who can afford air purifiers if they want them.

There is an air purification system in the House of Commons, for instance, and they were also used at Davos, along with mandatory covid testing for everyone who was there - and that was this year, not back in 2020 or 2021.

Back then the rich and powerful may have wanted fewer restrictions for themselves than for ordinary people, but equally now plenty of them want fewer risks for themselves than for ordinary people (and they'd also quite like not to have to pay too much to keep the ordinary people healthy, shortsighted as that attitude is).

People in charge rarely want to experience the sharp end of the policies they implement, and usually tweak things so they don't have to.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 09/03/2023 21:24

Is that a question about air quality measures? I don't know that much about them although I do like the idea of better air quality in general.

Mandatory covid testing for the public is neither feasible nor desirable though.

frothytoffee · 09/03/2023 21:39

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 09/03/2023 21:24

Is that a question about air quality measures? I don't know that much about them although I do like the idea of better air quality in general.

Mandatory covid testing for the public is neither feasible nor desirable though.

I wasn't saying anything about testing or air quality, other than to point out that there are circumstances when the rich and powerful quite like those things, despite the party lines being that none of us need those things any more.

Davos was a single event with high security so easy to add in a covid test requirement - much easier than it would be for most everyday situations. But what I find interesting is the fact that they chose to do that.

They could have just not bothered, on the basis that "covid is over" or "covid is mild now and it doesn't matter how many times we get it". But those seem to be arguments just used to persuade ordinary people that we don't need to care about covid - they don't seem to be things the people at Davos actually believe themselves.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 09/03/2023 21:45

Well, I don't necessarily consider choices that rich people might make to automatically be ones I'd want to emulate. But I certainly agree the attendees there aren't likely to be averse to a bit of one rule for me and one rule for thee.

MinkyGreen · 10/03/2023 05:47

The Cochrane review was mentioned earlier in the thread:

“Claims that face masks are ineffective at reducing the spread of COVID-19 based on a Cochrane review didn’t take into account the limitations of the review. While many users presented this review as the highest-quality evidence, the individual studies it evaluated varied greatly in terms of quality, study design, populations studied, and outcomes observed, which prevented the authors from drawing any definitive conclusions.”

Robert Malone, a scientist who previously spread misinformation about COVID-19 vaccines, was among the first ones to share the results of the Cochrane review in such a manner. In a Substack article later republished by the Brownstone Institute, Malone claimed that the Cochrane review “settled” the debate on mask-wearing and pointed to potential effects of masks on “health, childhood development, speech development”.

Similarly, other websites like Reason.com, newspapers like Chicago Sun-Times, and media outlets like Fox News claimed that the CDC had “exaggerated” the evidence supporting mask mandates. These few articles together received over 85,000 interactions on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, according to social media analytics tool CrowdTangle. In addition, the Cochrane review received more than 50,000 interactions on Facebook and Instagram.

However, such an interpretation of the Cochrane review is misleading and unsupported by the review’s analysis because the limitations of the review prevent us from drawing reliable conclusions about the impact of mask-wearing in the real world.

EmmaEmerald · 10/03/2023 10:25

I have personal experience of this but not sure why you've linked it?

FrostyFifi · 10/03/2023 10:42

I'm not sure either, it has nothing to do with the WhatApp message leaks or the broader pandemic topic.

MinkyGreen · 10/03/2023 11:23

I’d say it’s very much to do with the broader pandemic topic. The NHS has been woefully underfunded and understaffed by the Tories.

“Covid has accelerated the trajectory the NHS was already on, and makes the size of the NHS backlog less an unexpected aberration but rather a predictable consequence of the pandemic, for a system where pressures have been mounting for some time.”

“We saw unprecedented demand for urgent and emergency services over the winter, seeing around 500 patients daily. Like many NHS hospitals, the pressures were compounded by a peak in flu as well as still managing Covid cases. We were caring for a large number of seriously ill patients.”

FrostyFifi · 10/03/2023 12:01

But that text you've just copypastad doesn't appear anywhere in the article you've linked to.

MinkyGreen · 10/03/2023 13:39

No - but it’s clearly related.

“ “ = quotation marks. To denote a copy paste. I’m clearly not trying to pass it off as my own.

Don’t think the withering responses are completely necessary.

JenniferBooth · 11/03/2023 14:03

Wonder if Hancock has sent Gary Linekar a bottle of Scotch to say thankyou yet.

MinkyGreen · 11/03/2023 18:17

I ‘get’ the criticism of Matt Hancock.
What I don’t ‘get’ is justifying this with someone like Sumption who writes for Telegraph/Unherd - has been criticised for his Covid views, including his assertion to a Stage 4 cancer patient that her life was less valuable.

Right wing libertarianism argument. Again.

I’ll balance out with this Guardian article on Sumption.

amp.theguardian.com/law/2021/jan/19/less-valuable-experts-unconvinced-by-lord-sumptions-lockdown-ethics

Mycatsgoldtooth · 11/03/2023 18:30

@JenniferBooth unless it’s from the guardian it’s far right propaganda. Please remember that before you post anything. 😂. Really enjoyed the trigonometry episode and also came out of the Telegraph today with a grudging respect for Ben Wallis on this issue when I have always assumed he was a bit of an idiot.

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