The WhatsApp message leak

[Mycatsgoldtooth]

So, we’ve had the FBI saying it was a lab leak, the leaked messages showing many of the restrictions were for show, stats on the reality of masks being mostly useless unless N95s. Where are all the people that were so upset about anyone saying anything against the government now.

It’s almost as if no one care where the virus came from and how the government reacted. If I’d spent years being terrified and washing my shopping I’d be really pissed off.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/01/untruth-untruth-peddled-justify-great-lockdown-disaster/

@GoldenAye I was refferring to face masks. There was a certain poster on here who thought poorer ppl shouldnt get them for free.

and Laura Dodds worship Id say Laura has been vindicated. Is Lucy Eeasthope worship allowed considering she and Laura agree on a lot of things.

If course scientist worship is allowed........as long as its the right scientist. @IClaudine yes some of the posters on that thread were as you say but there was also a fair few of us just discussing the book. The fact you have used the phrase "and Laura Dodds worship" PROVES that you wanted discussion about the actual book censored and that is really not on.

As to the WhatsApp messages, they reflect people under immense, unprecedented pressure

So much unprecedented pressure that Hancock threatened to cut funding for disabled children if an MP voted against him, and then started screwing around behind his wife's back.
Giant ego trip more like, and that was the guy with the power over us.

Ive been under pressure but funnily enough its never made me want to laugh at people having to eat slop in quarantine hotels or want to make life harder for vulnerable groups Its also not made me want to take the piss in a WhatsApp group.

And if a woman MP had cheated on her husband during this there wouldnt be excuses like "she was under pressure"

That is an immensely optimistic take on the situation

We don't even have the cost/benefit analysis finalised now, never mind at the time

It seemed to globally become a big Game Theory tournament.

You are right, there was no option for governments at the time - but this was politically, not practically. The calls for lockdown were loud and persistent from the press, I remember people pulling kids out of school the week before lockdown, voluntarily! As a politician, Game Theory kicked in, big time. There was "no loss" politically from doing the lockdown, which is exactly what Boris did, despite his instinct that it was a terrible idea. If he had done nothing - he would have been gone in a week or two, such would have been the push back (because of the fear mongering).

But that is not to say there was no other viable practical option - we could have negotiated our response based on health and economy rather than just health. As we are seeing now, you have to consider both of these things - you cannot just use one as the primary decision making criteria, because there will be push back on the other. The global cost of living crisis is partly down to the global response to the pandemic - lockdowns and destruction of the supply chains - and there is no doubt that is costing lives.

Sweden appeared to do this - evaluating both economy and health and thereby did not lockdown, they had restrictions but all schools remained open and businesses were not shut down. There were other options, we were just told there weren't.

Sweden did absolutely fine, and are definitely better off now.

Yes, that was fucking repulsive and it's an unequivocally good thing that we've now been made aware of it. There aren't any ifs or buts there.

What is a problem is that the Telegraph are being so selective about what they release. The cure for that is fuller disclosure.

What I find amazing is that people seem to believe the politicians sat around with scientists and very seriously and carefully considered all evidence, then arrived at a balanced, evidence-based solution that took all needs into account.

Anyone who has worked in government or in any large organisation knows how rarely that ever happens, particularly when there are 'big' (arrogant, stupid) personalities involved and especially when there are political or reputational elements at stake. Even when they were trying to make decent decisions they were often working with patchy evidence and ridiculously inaccurate modelling and they had scared the public so much that they had to prioritise covid over everything else, even when they knew how damaging and pointless it would be.

One thing, I thought Matt Hancock was an incompetent wetty before the leak but now I think he's a total lying manipulative disgrace and such an indication of the low life that ran the country during Covid. what is he even doing in public service?

He isn't anything other than an MP at the moment, not even a party one as he doesn't have the whip, and hasn't met any of the criteria that would be needed to remove him before the next GE.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recall_of_MPs_Act_2015

Obviously he's an arsehole but he'll be gone soon enough. He's not standing at the next election, probably a wise choice on his part.

He’ll probably get a knighthood at some point

Do you reckon? I think they might try and scapegoat him.

@hamstersarse

Sweden had a high level of vaccine uptake. They had mask mandates in hospitals, vaccine passports.

Do you think Sweden were wrong because they followed scientific consensus advice on vaccines and have one of the highest rates of vaccine uptake in Europe?

I think Sweden were right by not imposing a lock down, not closing schools, keeping hospitality open, not limiting people meeting and not scaring people half to death, we will be dealing with the effects of that for years.

I bet there were not 129 children where lock down was considered a factor in their death, as there was in the U.K.

They got it right by following the pandemic plan they already had, not ripping it up to copy China as they were worried about optics. Their covid briefings were calm and factual and the focused on measured factual information and avoided spreading fear. Imagine if we had done the same, we wouldn’t be writing on this thread.

No-one was wearing masks in Stockholm when I visited in October 2020 …

Have a look at comparisons between Florida and California. Florida were very relaxed with their covid restrictions whilst California were really strict.
From what I've seen, comparative data for covid always seemed fairly similar but economically and for education, Florida seems to have come out much better.

They did have excess deaths in school age children. Unlike many other places where deaths in children and young children decreased during lockdowns.

Are you totally sure your preferred option is more dead children vs fewer dead children but lockdown as a contributing factor in some of them?

Lots of research pre pandemic showing that economically it’s better to control a pandemic virus and that countries that get it under control quicker recover quicker economically. All of that supported by what we learnt during this pandemic with countries with zero covid policies generally doing better than those without. The science/ health vs economy was always a false dichotomy created to cause a division which didn’t actually exist. There were economists saying this back in March 2020.

Lots of research pre pandemic showing that economically it’s better to control a pandemic virus and that countries that get it under control quicker recover quicker economically.

Which is not at all the same thing as evidence that a restrictions based approach was the best way to achieve that, or even that it was possible in the UK by the time we were aware of it. Lockdown was a brand new policy in 2020 so obviously evidence that it was better or worse in the long run couldn't have existed. The decision about whether to lock down or not had to be made in the absence of such.

Certainly correct that science v health is a false dichotomy though. They're completely intertwined, not two discrete areas.

I’m not even discussing this with a zero covid person. It’s beyond deluded to think zero covid was achievable or necessary. I don’t know about sweedens excess deaths I’m saying as they kept schools open, probably kept social workers visiting there would have been less deaths by abuse. Did those children die of covid? That would be odd as there were double digit covid deaths in children in the U.K. and we have 60 million people. Or was it that other countries road deaths fell and theirs stayed at the level expected in a not house arrested country. Anyway - Australia tried zero covid and did New Zealand and look how that turned out…
But be disingenuous and say I want more dead children….,As someone who worked with children at risk of being taken into care through the pandemic the abuse of kids and the pressures on parents is the thing I’ve been most upset about.

The largest society who've attempted a zero covid policy are of course China. I'm quite confident we'll get full transparency on just how badly that's gone for them, after all it's not like the regime have tried to cover anything else up during this pandemic.

Florida is about the only place that was run reasonably well AFAICS.

Sweden stats on covid and children.

’in all of Sweden, only 15 children, 10 preschool teachers, and 20 school teachers were admitted to intensive care units for COVID-19 complications’

there were 69 children age 0-16 that died in 2020 compared with 65 in 2019. We do not know what caused those deaths. So the massive spike in child deaths touted above doesn’t check out.

But let’s looks at the U.K. - suicides, abuse, cancelled cancer treatment, children with learning difficulties/disabilities locked in care homes with no parental visits. 100,00 children missing from education, spikes in mental health conditions.

Was it really worth locking down children who were not at risk. Would it not have been better to think of a way to minimise exposure to the elderly at risk groups - like Sweden did - to protect those children?

I'm not sure how much masking went on in Sweden - when DH was working in the region they were travelling by train between Copenhagen and Stockholm and when the train crossed the border into Sweden there was an announcement and everyone took their masks off.

@Mycatsgoldtooth

Thats another thing I find offensive.

No. Sweden have a higher suicide rate than UK.

You’re weaponising again. I’m not saying that lockdown didn’t cause mental health problems and hardship. But when you just start bandying statements about suicide to justify your ‘anti everything’ stance - it’s really not great.

“Sweden is bringing back its mask mandate in hospitals and nursing homes as surging COVID-19 infections have led to a significant rise in critical cases and deaths over the past week.
Starting from last week, 17 of Sweden's 21 administrative regions reintroduced face mask requirements in hospitals and nursing homes.” - Aug 22