The WhatsApp message leak

[Mycatsgoldtooth]

So, we’ve had the FBI saying it was a lab leak, the leaked messages showing many of the restrictions were for show, stats on the reality of masks being mostly useless unless N95s. Where are all the people that were so upset about anyone saying anything against the government now.

It’s almost as if no one care where the virus came from and how the government reacted. If I’d spent years being terrified and washing my shopping I’d be really pissed off.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/01/untruth-untruth-peddled-justify-great-lockdown-disaster/

news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-man-punched-in-face-after-removing-mask-to-speak-to-elderly-mother-on-tram-12108419

//www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-54283453
Asda mask row: Man with dementia 'told to leave shop'
By Greig Watson

I'm not sure if it's the incident you're thinking of but there was situation where a couple and their children who were playing in their own front garden were told off by police officers and ordered indoors. The level of insanity was really scary.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-garden-lockdown-rules-south-yorkshire-police-rotherham-a9459146.html

@JenniferBooth

My understanding was that you would be exempt from wearing a mask in that situation. Not forced.

Its just a plea to see the other side. I went through some really horrible times with my family during Covid. I remember having to pick up nappies on the way to see my Mum. I knew that if I passed Covid on to her I would kill her. I remember standing at a counter trying my best to distance, and a group of young men taunting me for wearing a mask. I remember sitting in the car afterwards and crying.

It really wasn’t light hearted, or a joke thing for me at all. I hated it.

A PP mentioned charities earlier

www.osarcc.org.uk/coping-with-a-face-covering-as-a-survivor-of-sexual-violence/

This is such an awful statement - 'I knew if I pass covid onto her I would kill her.'

Can you see how that belief was created by the fearmongering? If you had passed covid onto your mum there would have been a very good chance she would survive, just like the many millions of very ill people who caught covid and survived. It was by no means guaranteed it would kill her - in fact there wasn't even a strong chance it would kill her. Yes there was definitely a risk but not the level you seem to believe it was.

And you said 'I would kill her,' as though you were to blame. That also comes from the fearmongering messaging that made people feel like they were murderers for simply wanting to be with their elderly and vulnerable relatives.

EVIL

Yes, the age related percentage of risk was discussed in one of those conversations so they were well aware.

Johnson stated something like he didn't think an 80 year old would want the economy ruining if he had a 94 percent chance of recovery. If I was 80, my thoughts would be not for the economy but for how many healthy and mobile years I likely had left. I'd not want to spend those years stuck alone on my sofa when I could be living life and enjoying time with my family.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

Thank you for that.

She had bowel cancer at the time and was CEV. I was her primary carer. The stage she was at at the time, yes it would have killed her. She was waiting for delayed surgery due to her hospital being overwhelmed.

@MinkyGreen and I could list just as many things that happened in my family due to the restrictions. And there will be people dying now due to the fact their cancer was missed. I’m sorry you had these experiences it sounds horrific, but it seems like if it happened because of covid that’s deserving of sympathy. If hardship was because of restrictions - then sorry it’s Sophie’s choice.

I lost no one to covid or known anyone who was badly affected, but three people in their 20’s/30’s that I knew killed themselves during lock down. One had all his mental health support stopped, one lost his business and became overwhelmed, another was abroad and alone and isolated.

My grandmother became suicidal in a care home. My grand fil&mil were separated in a care home on rooms opposite each other. He died without getting to say goodbye to his wife of 55 years. The carers were going between the rooms.

My son has ASD and speech delay. Because we could not see a specialist we only found out he was deaf in one ear after lock down. He didn’t learn to talk until he was three. At that point he’d been in lock down for a third of his life.

After the police questioned us for playing in a park my oldest developed anxiety about going out. I don’t know if his issues with learning he still has are actually dyslexia or that I could not home school him properly while working and looking after a 2 year old during the critical learning years reception and year 1.

My husband having to leave 40 minutes after I’d given birth and was in HDU was pretty traumatic. Then not seeing him for two days.

My aunt not being able to say goodbye to my uncle who died of a heart attack. She then want allowed to view his body as he ‘may have had covid’. She’s not recovered.

My mil who has heart damage from the vaccine that was missed as she was told ‘vaccine injuries area myth’
I could go on…

You do realise that if it was guaranteed covid would kill her then prior to covid a cold or a minor infection you gave her could also have killed her? As in, a person with such a weak immune system that the death rate for them was 100% - ie over 100 times the death rate for the typical person - would be vulnerable to literally every infection in the whole world?

On another thread back in 2020 someone was insisting it was all about saving lives.
I pointed out that in Italy they were being handed out free outside pharmacies.
The reply was "You think ppl should get them for free"
The mask slipped

@Mycatsgoldtooth

I do sympathise and I’m sorry to hear what you have been through.

i also have a three year old with ASD who has been locked down for a large percentage of his life. I’m questioning every day whether his speech delay is due to lockdown.

Both my children were anxious about leaving the house again after lockdown.

I’m trying to say there are two sides to this. I was more on the other side of supporting restrictions and it wasn’t because I’m ‘privileged’ or have a laptop or a garden. I was extremely concerned about my families health. I felt pulled in so many directions.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

It was mid pandemic. I didn’t know what was happening. She was over 75 so the IFR for her age was not great and that’s without the bowel cancer. Don’t try and minimise it.

I also knew that there was a good chance if her surviving is she got her surgery in time. Which she did - thank god. So no - I also didn’t want her to get Covid and have a potential surgery delay which would have also killed her - if Covid didn’t.

@MinkyGreen with respect it seems that your experiences are influencing your judgement about what everyone else should do or should have done. With reference to this, I remember an interesting discussion in which the OP was insisting how selfish she thought everyone else was due not masking, not staying in, meeting for walks etc. With a bit of digging, it appeared that the reason she described them as selfish is because she thought everyone else should be putting her first because of her own vulnerabilities, either real or imagined, before their own lives and that of their children. So naturally it was suggested that she was the selfish one, something which she wouldn't contemplate.

We saw it with that woman from Bolton who was trying to organise school strikes - keeping children off school because she insisted they weren't safe. We saw it with Deepti Gurdasani who talks constantly on Twitter about how much more "safely" people should be behaving - for the sake of the children naturally. Turns out both of them were classed as CV themselves. Deepti has spent three years trying to avoid Covid, even moving herself and her children to Western Australia to try and avoid filthy other people. She still caught it, and is still with us.

And i agree with another poster about it being so sad that you're classing the scenario of your mum catching Covid as you "killing her". Before 2020 we didn't think like this! My dad died in 2017 - he was only just 74. He'd had Alzheimer's for a few years and was in a care home. He caught a cold from someone, which developed into pneumonia, and then he died. It was very sad of course, but it didn't cross out minds backsthen that one of us might have "killed" him. That's the messaging that the government was pushing, and it's done so much harm 😞

@WestwardHo1

But my views are not really differing from consensus science or NHS guidelines.

I wore a mask when I was asked to. I believe they may offer at least some protection even if the evidence is not clear. I’d only wear be now in a hospital setting - or if things got bad again and I was asked to. .

I didn’t want to lockdown - I thought the government managed it badly, but followed the rules to avoid infecting others.

I think that’s what the majority did?

Of course people’s experiences reflect their views. That doesn’t mean I can’t have a view or express it?

@WestwardHo1

I was doing my best to keep her safe and alive. Had I infected her with Covid, I would have killed her. That was very much on my mind. I’m not going to be ridiculed for thinking that way. I was careful, she didn’t catch Covid - she got her surgery and she is alive.

Similarly I see people on here with anecdotal stories of vaccine injury which seem to get the full sympathy from those who would minimise my Mum’s situation. No questions asked there. So I guess it depends on your views. Which you have - and are entitled to. And so am I.

Of course but what people are discussing here is to what extent the messaging was influenced by the government's view on what would bring them the most political gain. Both the Tory government as a whole, and individuals within that government. Of course the NHS messaging was influenced by the government! Of course voices which went against this offi cc half message were muzzled.

Only someone very naive would think otherwise.

And people thought for a very long time that government measures (and therefore NHS messaging) were solely or primarily "to save lives". No, they weren't

No. You would not have killed her. Her ill health would have killed her. Those who kill others, if caught, faces criminal charges. You can't criminally charge an illness or a virus or an infection.

And I'm genuinely not trying to ridicule you.

You were perfectly entitled to behave like you did to try and protect your mum. And I'm glad she got her surgery and is still with you, and I'm sorry those men intimidated you in your mask.

What people are talking about is that broader culture which dictated that everyone who didn't do the same was a selfish sociopath, when actually they had their own life, their own ones.

@WestwardHo1

Yes, I know I wouldn’t have criminally killed her. It would have been in my conscious in a different way. I would have felt responsible for her death - killing her. If I hadn’t taken care where possible, if I’d passed it on to her - I’m sorry - but that was just my mindset as her carer.

i have actually tried to avoid words like ‘selfish’ - I do think everyone has their own justifications.

What I don’t like is misrepresentation or misinformation. I think there are pros and cons in every situation. With Covid it was a weigh up between a con and an even bigger con.

So you could have shielded with your mum, without society shutting down? Did it need all in of us to do the same? Again, I'm not trying to get at you personally. I hope you believe me.

A large part of it I think, certainly at first, was the government (or at least Johnson) being bounced into a lockdown, and realising too late that Covid wasn't The Big One. However by then they were in an it up to their necks, and they found they enjoyed the power.

I remember Laura Dodsworth saying in A State of Fear that she spoke to someone (cant remember whether it was a minister or someone else I would have to check my copy) and they told her they would rather let businesses go to the wall than lose face.

The Scottish Government took it to a whole new level.

This is what was frightening about that time. The strict enforcement of nonsensical rules. Giving birth in a mask? Just awful.
My mums elderly friend was fined because her neighbour reported her for having visitors.
This highlighted to me that so many people would love to live in a police state. They're happy to give up their freedoms and thrive in being part of the enforcement.
I read a meme during that time that said you now know that most people would report on Anne Frank because those are the rules.
That message was hard to take in.