If you didn't get the jab, would you consider having it now?

[AreYouVeryAnti]

You'd better be quick if you're healthy and under 50...

"The Telegraph understands the Government is also preparing to wind down the open offer of the first two doses over the coming months. The move will mean unvaccinated healthy under-50s will soon not be able to get a Covid jab unless one is recommended by a medical professional."

@MeetPi
oh, do you consider fox news to be reputable?

@MeetPi
sorry, didn't realise you were being facetious. the title is highlighting its misinformation

@peppathe3rd

What are your sources?

Because the only sources I’ve seen linked here so far are:

1. bit chute (very right wing and gets automatically deleted)
2. ody see (very right wing and gets automatically deleted)
3. unherd (very right wing)
4. big brother watch (very dubious source who cover themselves by residing at a particular address/don’t reveal their donors)
5. the daily telegraph (traditionally right wing bias)
6. extreme right wing or right wing politicians
7. fringe scientists who have been discredited or out to make a name for themselves/or celebrity status by appearing on the Joe Rogan show
8. anecdotal evidence which has no proper medical evaluation and is taken at face value
9. a cherry picked graph or phrase from a study presented out of context - and with no acknowledgement to the original explanation given by the authors of the paper it’s lifted from.

Could someone please explain to me why these sources would be considered ‘safer’ than a global majority opinion that 1) attempts to be free from bias 2) has the most robust evidence as it’s been widely scrutinised/has peer backing/has been peer reviewed 3)is contrary to the guidelines given in every country around the globe?

@MinkyGreen
i think you have this backwards. @bronzepig made a claim, and i have asked for supporting evidence. therefore, it is not for me to provide sources to support their claim. that list you made looks nuts - have no idea why you would attach it to a question related to me.

@MinkyGreen
in case you are NOT being deliberately obtuse, here was the question...

*you have suggested that i live in an echo chamber where this causal link is mysteriously covered up, but, in reality, heart issues have been a well known and well documented side effect from this particular vaccine that were made widely available to the public. moreover, you considered an earlier poster to be "liberally rewriting history," when they suggested that many people were not aware of these potential complications and were therefore denied informed consent.

so, what i am asking you for are the news organisations, physicians, medical professionals, policy makers, politicians, etc. that have successfully communicated these "known heart related side effects," to the population at large. since you claim it is conspiratorial to suggest this information was not made readily available and accessible, it should be very easy to cite the plethora of examples of how this information was presented openly to the public.*

@peppathe3rd

First doses were administered at the end of 2020 - and I can see various studies/reports about myocarditis from about May 2021 onwards.

If I look at the NHS guidance it explicitly says it’s a rare side effect.

The general conclusion is : it’s a rare side effect and there is a far greater risk of complications from a Covid infection itself.

What cover up? What source is persuading you to this or is it just a personal observation?

Is it just me - or is there a pattern on these threads? A claim of myocarditis cover up by a known poster - followed by an anecdotal claim by an unknown poster. Hmmm…

@MinkyGreen that's odd, I've noticed a pattern on here of anyone questioning what's going on in any way being subjected to lots of attacks and abuse under the guise of 'following the science' in a very blinkered way with lots of talk of everything being 'right wing', not everything has to have a wing as another poster pointed out on here,
Unherd is certainly not 'right wing'. The Guardian is basically a comic and if you get your news from there just because it's free then I feel sorry for you!

There seems to be a huge effort to discredit anything that questions what is and has been going on, possibly buyers remorse from people who took the vaccine and are now a bit worried about news coming out about how it was in a way forced on to people with little testing (lots of strange things abut the trials) and no proper warning of the side effects (and total immunity from repercussions to the manufacturers in the contracts)?

It's a very complex area and people are scared, shouting them down for asking questions can't be helpful surely? All this talk of people questioning the vaccine for profit is very strange, how about they are questioning it because it was a strange situation and it looks like a lot of fishy things went on and people have a right to know as it was and is their money that was spent on it in, in massive amounts with millions of lives destroyed by terrible lockdown policy which was against all previous, well researched ways of dealing with pandemics and blindly following China of all places!

Lockdowns were terrible, everyone knows that now. they caused havoc, millions were transferred from peoples pockets to private hands via the government over the past years with huge debt for future generations by a bunch of completely corrupt politicians who have been barely held accountable - look at Matt Handcock trying to be a celebrity, it's bizarre, he was messing about while the ship was sinking and then did a ghost written book saying he was a saint and trying to re-write history. It's right to try and 'fight misinformation' but why shut down conversation while events are infolding, it's always best to have an open mind, no?

It's brilliant that Mumsnet can be a supportive place for people who have problems and need help from lots of other nice people in the country. The state has and is failing us but we can still help each other and get answers.
Look at the support straight talking rationalists like Konstatin Kissin are getting, it's really refreshing to see some reason in the media to cut through all the spin and lies.
He talks about a lot of these issues around the vaccines and freedom of choice regarding medical procedures:
This is about people's' freedoms that have been hard fought over the year and seem to be being eroded with a very large invoice attached...

@SkysAreGrey

Unherd and your friend there Konstantin Kissen. Right wing bias :

“The aim of UnHerd actually appears to be presenting a broad spectrum of ideas within an overarching right-wing narrative that generally supports Brexit and ending the national lockdown.

In 2018, UnHerd was bankrolled by the millionaire Sir Paul Marshall, former director of the trillion-dollar asset firm BlackRock and co-founder of the pro-Brexit, billion-dollar hedge fund, Marshall Wace, which made £50 million betting against companies in the early months of the COVID crisis.

UnHerd’s Paul Embery, who claims that the left hates the working classes,
has been featured on TRIGGERnometry, a YouTube channel with over 180k followers. The channel was set up by the right-wing comedian (yes, such things exist), Konstantin Kisin (whose website quotes endorsements from the Telegraph and Spectator) and fellow performer, Francis Foster. Kisin’s interviews seem to imply that the left’s efforts to censor speech in the interests of offended minorities, is akin to social control in his native Soviet Union.

TRIGGERnometry’s topics include: “Sex is NOT a spectrum,” “The West Must Defend Itself,” “Cancelled for Defending Colonialism,” “Cancelled for Criticising BLM,” and “Lockdown Was an Overreaction.” Guests include the usual suspects: Laurence Fox, Douglas Murray, Lionel Shriver, et al.”

Following consensus science is not ‘blinkered’ - it is the majority opinion. THAT is how science works in any scenario. The consensus opinion would be the least biased and with the most robust, peer reviewed evidence worldwide.

If fringe science and yes - whether you like it or not - sources with a heavy right wing bias - were holding any weight, then it would start to feed consensus science. You’d see one country around the globe taking heed and changing their guidelines. How about Sweden - every anti lockdowners favourite country? They have one of the highest vaccination rates in Europe?

This isn’t a discussion about lockdown. It’s a discussion about vaccines.

And again - what is this ‘cover up’ when reports about the condition were appearing in mid 2021?? A few months after the first administered dose?

I also don’t see the problem in pointing out the bias of a source. In fact I’d say it’s absolutely vital that you know the political bias of your sources.

@MinkyGreen
again, i don't think you are grasping the context. @bronzepig suggested the idea of a grand conspiratorial cover up. you wrote that YOU could see reports linking this side effect from may 2021. that is very different from the knowledge being widespread and effectively communicated to the population. so far, none of you have been able to show that this risk was in any way communicated to the public.

@peppathe3rd

Do you want me to link sources? I’ve found about 20 so far from a quick Google search. Studies/news reports. All starting from mid 2021. A few months after first administered dose.

yes please

@peppathe3rd

www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/work-groups-vast/report-2021-05-17.html

www.who.int/news/item/26-05-2021-gacvs-myocarditis-reported-with-covid-19-mrna-vaccines

www.bbc.com/news/health-57781637.amp

www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133462-800-myocarditis-is-more-common-after-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/

www.gov.uk/government/publications/myocarditis-and-pericarditis-after-covid-19-vaccination

amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/29/covid-poses-higher-risk-of-myocarditis-than-vaccine-in-male-teens-us-study

www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1635/rr-0

www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2109730

This is April 2021:

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-examining-heart-inflammation-cases-people-who-received-pfizer-covid-shot-2021-04-25/

So again - why do you believe there is a cover up and what is your better, more credible, bias-free source for your assertions - as I’ve just supplied mine?

@MinkyGreen
i will look through your material. thanks. for the last time, @bronzepig suggested a cover up! my original question was this...

i do not understand how, on one hand, the argument is that heart conditions post jab are a "known side effect," while, on the other hand, when young, healthy people have developed these "known side effects," and question the "causation," it is vociferously shot down as pretty much anything but the jab. (i'm being careful to use your terminology.)

@MinkyGreen

JERUSALEM, April 25 (Reuters) - Israel’s Health Ministry said on Sunday it is examining a small number of cases of heart inflammation in people who had received Pfizer’s (PFE.N))_ COVID-19 vaccine, though it has not yet drawn any conclusions.
Pfizer said it has not observed a higher rate of the condition than would normally be expected in the general population.

from your list (cdc). my italics

VaST discussed:
• Further information should be collected through medical record review about potential myocarditis cases that were reported into VAERS.
• Information about this potential adverse event should be provided to clinicians to enhance early recognition and appropriate management of persons who develop myocarditis symptoms following vaccination.
• Collaboration between infectious diseases, cardiology, and rheumatology specialists is needed to provide guidance on diagnosis, treatment, and management of myocarditis.

from the WHO article...
The GACVS subcommittee noted that most of the information received so far is based on spontaneous, passive reporting. More rigorous studies using alternative data sources and more robust study designs including comparison of vaccinated and unvaccinated populations are needed to assess a potential causal association between the event and the vaccine.

@MinkyGreen but it's not the majority opinion, it's the only one that has been allowed due to pressure on the big tech platforms by drug companies! That's all come out now. To try and waffle on about 'right wing bias' in the face of actual evidence to the contrary is frankly bizarre and depressing.

All this 'right wing' mud throwing is just dumb, not everything has to be about bias, facts are facts, however much you may not like them. you seem hugely invested in defending a very dubious status quo...

@peppathe3rd

Arghh - it’s all in retrospect! That’s the earliest known report I could find. You absolutely cannot take the results of that very early report as ‘the public were duped’. Science is fluid - it evolves as more evidence comes to light! My point is that the public were being made aware as early as April 2021.

Consensus science is the majority opinion which would have reviewed all evidence regarding myocarditis globally - and it attempts to be free from bias.

In 2023 that majority opinion has not changed. The vaccine is safe and effective, it has that status. Your risk of complications from a Covid infection is far, far greater than your risk from the vaccine. Side effects - and all the findings from studies from April 2021 to now are widely reported.

And I bet Pfizer say there is nothing wrong with their very lucrative vaccine which they did substandard trials for, some not even in humans!

@SkysAreGrey

You talk of personal attacks : I’ve just been referred to as nuts, dumb, waffle etc. Hmmm.

You are linking right wing sources! It’s incredibly important to know that. You can’t just gloss over that fact by calling me ‘dumb’!

You are rejecting a source that attempts to be bias free in favour of a source that has a heavy political bias.