Is it ok to ask about the ramping up of vaccine side effects stories?

[SparklingJam]

I’m generally pro vaccines, but I’m starting to question the effects of the covid jab, and wonder if it’s possible to have a discussion about it. Apologies if this has been done to death, or isn’t an accepted topic.

I’ve been seeing more information about deaths of young men, how the vaccine isn’t very effective against covid, and hearing all about dreadful side effects, to the point where some people won’t have the jab because they “know” they’ll die.

I can fully accept that there are side effects, but the talk of increased deaths (apparently 1300 excess deaths per week, coupled with videos of supposed undertakers saying they are 50-100% busier now) is making me question things and worry.

Having said that, in my extended circle of friends, family and colleagues, I know many people who are mostly vaccinated, and apart from a day or 5 of feeling fluey they all have no side effects and haven’t died.
At the same time through the same extended group, I know a couple who have died of covid and several who still have long covid which has disabled them to varying degrees.

It would be logical to think that the excess deaths are a catch up to lock down and lack of hospital treatment, plus the current issues many have with seeing a gp or calling an ambulance, but I am assured by certain people that the excess deaths are solely due to the vaccine.

No idea what you are trying to say?

Wow didn’t the tone change overnight?

All medication, vaccines and treatments have potential side effects, considering the millions (billions?) who have been vaccinated it would be more bizarre if literally no one had an adverse reaction.

The reason this gets polarised is because rather than this be accepted it seems to be either:

These vaccines are dangerous and unsafe

No one has a bad reaction it just doesn't happen with these jabs

Neither of which is true.

You'd hope that adults deciding whether to vaccinate or not would understand that everything like this comes with risks, but it seems not and people should have had it spelt out. Paracetamol and other innocuous tablets sometimes kill people or change their lives even when taken within the limits etc- on the whole people don't consider them dangerous because of this.

The other challenge is that it's hard to untangle what are effects of the jab, what are covid and what are other things that just happen. As so many people have had at least one vaccine even if it's unrelated there's a high percentage they've also been jabbed. People need to be reporting to the yellow card scheme and letting them try and untangle it.

To anyone that thinks that side effects means something is dangerous, did you know that you can have an anaphylactic reaction to saline? A percentage of people who get anaphylaxis from the vaccine are reacting to the saline.

The level of trust in govt messaging is low (for good reason), which is helpful to groups such as HART etc to spread misinformation. There are leaked chat logs from them online. Even the BBC have reported on them and their links to other groups. One of the reasons people get shouted down re: vaccine injury is because people are now so wary of these types of groups and the 'innocent' way they start discussions. Of course there are people who have been injured by the vaccines, and they should be free to discuss - and more importantly be taken seriously by GPs etc.

What do you mean the tone changed? What happened is UK based MNers are pushing back - armed with actual facts- on this constant anti vaxx agenda getting free rein on MN.

@BeenToldComputerSaysNo This is true. Even Rishi Sunak has said that the government gave too much power to experts and there wasn't open discussion about lockdown trade offs. People were desperate to discuss it but couldn't. This does validate those who distrust the government and their messaging.
This attitude ripples to other areas related to the pandemic.

It's terrifying that discussing vaccine side effects might not be considered an "acceptable topic."

I thought we were long past this, but apparently not. For some.

The paper in vaccines was retracted.

Even Rishi Sunak has said that the government gave too much power to experts

😂 are you sure that you meant to imply that giving power to people who know what they're talking about is a bad idea? And that it would be better to put our trust in people like the cabinet? Like Nadine Dorries??

'Even' Rishi Sunak??!

Malhotra has been openly criticised by the British heart foundation

I remember when Covid related discussions used to involve the phrase "look to the East". Supressing discussion and having no choice but to follow a set narative is very representative of states like China or Russia.

As long as vaccination remains a matter of personal choice, I'm fine with it. Professionals need to be able to raise their concerns about what they find without fearing being discredited. The roll out of the vaccines was vast and rapid, it saved lives and took the Novel element out of the equation. People need to be able to make choices about if vaccination continues to be beneficial for them in their circumstances. With the current boundaries of medical vulnerability and 50+ it's not that contentious.

If people can't say "since being vaccinated... happened" without being denounced as Anti-Vaxx lunatics, then that undermines official data collection as they won't go forwards to the Yellow Card scheme and data is missed.

My anecdata is that after both types of jab I felt worse (with relatively minor symptoms) than I have done with two rounds of Covid. Hopefully the Covid was mild because the vaccines had helped my immune response to the actual pathogen. I don't see a substantial benefit to seeking futher vaccination for myself and other low risk members of my household in current circumstances. Other people will have different risk: benefit judgements. I know one person who spent spring/ summer 2021 in ICU with a very unusual, extreme immune reaction a couple of weeks after his first vaccination. It was not Covid. That deserves appropriate investigation into finding out if the vaccine was the trigger. I did accept the 2nd and boosters after that on the logic that even if it was directly connected to the vaccine the risk of a similar reaction is at a lottery winning scale.

Transparency and middle ground debate is the lay persons best defence against extremism. Supressing healthy debate is deeply unhealthy for data collection and society. Hurling insults around and denigrating people who think differently is never a persuasive strategy.

Rishi Sunak in a sales pitch to an electorate that wildly supportted a populist makes a statement that appeals to their populist prejudices about 'experts'. Much like Truss did about lazy workers working harder when all the industrial economic evidence shows that the UK is an outlier amongst comparable nations in working long hours with relative under investment in capital and skills and the last thing the UK needs is more hours by workers compared with better investment in capital and skills. Wonder where the focus of the UK government has been for the last 12 years, in adult further education.... But hey, Rishi, the medic scientist makes a statement about COVID experts...

It's not healthy debate to stir up fear of links to alopecia and the vaccine, for example BOGOFF. When one reads about it its no different from people ignoring the contributions of co morbidities to Covid risks.

The PP still hasn't clarified which person stated that hair loss was linked to the vaccine.

@noblegiraffe I don't understand the ridicule?
If the person who was part of the government that put us into lockdown is now having doubts about it and publicly saying it, it increases the distrust for those that had doubts in the first place. We assume the government had access to all the best advice.
This is what shutting down discussion does and that's why I'm for open discussion.

He is playing to the CRG gallery.

Anyhow, this thread isn't about lockdown. Rushed certainly has never cast doubt on the vaccine.

Rishi!

I don't doubt the vaccine either I'm just discussing the need for open discussion.

If the person who was part of the government that put us into lockdown is now having doubts about it and publicly saying it, it increases the distrust for those that had doubts in the first place. We assume the government had access to all the best advice.

Can you clarify this please?

I know 1 person who had terrible side effects from the vaccines, twice. She won't be having any more, and that's understandable. The overwhelming majority of people I know have had zero side effects to minimal side effects from the vaccine, such as sore arms, feeling a bit tired for a day or two, etc.

I know people who died from actual covid, pre-vaccines I know people who still have long term affects from actual covid, pre-vaccines.

Most people who have covid post-vaccines are having much better 'experiences' with covid due to their now vaccinated status.

I myself had covid pre-vaccines (sucked, bad on/off headache, lost my sense of smell, achy) and covid post-vaccine (stuffy cold level).

Vaccines have made a tremendous difference in maintaining our health and lives with covid. Don't scaremonger because a few people have bad reactions to vaccines, as people do with ALL vaccines.

I agree. This isn't one of those situations where the truth is somewhere in the middle of all the views and opinions here on this thread. Most of us don't have the tools to discriminate and understand the issues and should have the humility to remember that.

So each side is accusing the other side of being "paid", of being summoned to the discussion by some nefarious organisation intent of spreading their terrible lies.

Welcome to internet debate in 2022.