Is it ok to ask about the ramping up of vaccine side effects stories?

[SparklingJam]

I’m generally pro vaccines, but I’m starting to question the effects of the covid jab, and wonder if it’s possible to have a discussion about it. Apologies if this has been done to death, or isn’t an accepted topic.

I’ve been seeing more information about deaths of young men, how the vaccine isn’t very effective against covid, and hearing all about dreadful side effects, to the point where some people won’t have the jab because they “know” they’ll die.

I can fully accept that there are side effects, but the talk of increased deaths (apparently 1300 excess deaths per week, coupled with videos of supposed undertakers saying they are 50-100% busier now) is making me question things and worry.

Having said that, in my extended circle of friends, family and colleagues, I know many people who are mostly vaccinated, and apart from a day or 5 of feeling fluey they all have no side effects and haven’t died.
At the same time through the same extended group, I know a couple who have died of covid and several who still have long covid which has disabled them to varying degrees.

It would be logical to think that the excess deaths are a catch up to lock down and lack of hospital treatment, plus the current issues many have with seeing a gp or calling an ambulance, but I am assured by certain people that the excess deaths are solely due to the vaccine.

I can't speak for all the people reluctant to take the vaccine, but I, and everyone I know who has refrained, hope we are wrong.

@leafyygreens
When you find something incredibly tedious, why do you spend time addressing it?

Because disinformation causes real harm & costs lives? Because people are literally profitting from this and for whatever reason, people are happy to help them do it on parenting forums?

Clearly no-one can tackle all the disinformation posted here unless they were being paid to do it full time (at it's worst it would need a full time team).

And to be clear - this isn't my first rodeo when it comes to anti-vaccine disinformation campaigns. Coronavirus was just great unexpected windfall for people already profitting in this area.

It's just absolutely crackers that people make a career out of it.

@leafyygreens
You do acknowledge that people have been harmed and/or died from these vaccines, right? Denying this would be misinformation. You genuinely have considered and critically thought about the profit side to this, and your conclusion is that the "anti-vaxers" are here to cash in? How could that possibly add up in your mind?

The cardiac events and excess deaths in young men are also due to long Covid. Had a friend die lost coivd and no jabs. Long Covid cusses micro clotting and some really fucked your heart stuff. There is a whole generation who are going to have side effects from long covid as well as those who had vaccine injuries. So many people will have died more so than the vaccine. It’s kind of A necessary éveil. Some die with the vaccine but more so without it. There is no good outcome. Like lockdown. Some people (a lot) lost businesses but more would have gone under with the predicted death rate and long covid.

Well there are reports that there is a very low uptake among the elderly. Wonder why?

Yes of course I do - I've posted about it before.Anyone who has any kind of complication deserves to be heard, have a proper investigation, and get access to treatment.

I can say this alongside pointing out that fake claims cause harm and costs lives. Indeed, all disinformation serves to do is harm and detract from people who genuinely do have complications from a vaccination.

Surely you can understand that an individual posting about not wanting to be vaccinated is not the same thing a clinician/scientist building up a disinformation campaign and using it to profit?

And what about all those who were pushing it on the TV etc...How much harm have they done? I'm sure if people had informed consent, weren't coerced and given bloody donuts and realised COVID 19 was downgraded in March 2020 as people had a 99.8% recovery - would they have still taken it?

As for a previous poster saying 'antivaxxers' lack intelligence - just read above!

your conclusion is that the "anti-vaxers" are here to cash in? How could that possibly add up in your mind?

Baffled as to why this is such a shocking revelation @peppathe3rd

Wakfield attempted to discredit the MMR, whilst quietly filing a patent for his own "safe" measles vaccines & a cure for autism (for which is proposed the MMR had caused an epidemic of).

This kind of thing is being repeated globally, by all sorts of people who have been named on this thread & others, with various other types of snakeoils and ways to profits. Except the whole thing is on steroids because how easy the internet & social media makes it to spread fake claims.

They carefully build up a network of disinformation, which you'll then see filter down to forums, social media, and places like MN, where posters repeat it. The posters are doing this work for free (you would assume), and the people at the top profit.

I don't understand what your point is here?

We have robust, replicated evidence that it was safer to be vaccinated than not vaccinated.

This meant public health campaigns were used to encourage uptake of vaccination, which will include television adverts.

Many many posters have explained to you over the past couple of years why "99.8%" recovery is not the only factor to consider when it comes to vaccinated.

I am not anti vax at all And have had all 4 - but given that it doesn't prevent covid I think it's a normal thought to maybe question whether so many vaccines in a short space of time is good for your overall health

Babies have the 6 in 1 jab 3 times in the first four months of life.

The hep b vaccine schedule is 3+ doses which can be in as little as 10 days depending on the time frame.

My partner travels a lot for work, and regularly comes back from the travel clinic having had five or so jabs and rubbing his arm!

It is normal to need primary schedule of several doses (and then regular boosters) depending on what vaccine you're talking about, this is something that seems to have been missed though. Especially when you think about all the repeated exposure we're having to SARS-COV-2 itself.

By the time I had my first vaccine it was known that the vaccine did not prevent Covid, but that in most cases reduced severity and the chance of being hospitalised and death. I believe it was also known that repeat doses would need to be given.

Given that none of us have had to pay for any of these injections, I can't believe the government would continue to pay if it was not thought to be cost effective.

@saltedcaramel1 you are probably right. I had forgotten about those, as for me it's over 20 years ago

Someone posted a link to the Financial Times' excellent investigation of E&W excess deaths upthread, but here's an alternative presentation of the same analysis in twitter thread form, from the author, John Burn-Murdoch, who's been a dedicated and open minded analyst and presented of the available data throughout the pandemic. It's been cross-checked by a bunch of specialists and actuaries.
twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1562004612172873728?s=20&t=geZ4VvNaGX0lMsAcz7GKfw

TLDR: There are apparent excess deaths all across Europe. When analysed on an age-standardised basis those excess deaths disappear in most countries, but not in England and Wales (and Portugal/Spain, probably due to heat waves). Probably not due to long-Covid because they're seen across multiple causes of death, and not in all countries. Best estimate is it's due to poor A&E response times.

@bronzepig

"your conclusion is that the "anti-vaxers" are here to cash in? How could that possibly add up in your mind?" - my quote

Baffled as to why this is such a shocking revelation @peppathe3rd

Wakfield attempted to discredit the MMR, whilst quietly filing a patent for his own "safe" measles vaccines & a cure for autism (for which is proposed the MMR had caused an epidemic of).

Firstly, this is not a revelation but an allegation. There is nothing revelatory in your argument, or conclusive. Your argument is that Wakefield applied for a patent, which was never implemented into any medical treatment. Had the plan been successful, it would have been lucrative, but it was not. I believe he lost his medical license and ability to practice, which clearly would have been a financial blow. I am not an expert on his career, although you imply we are somehow working to further enrich a man who lost his career?

On the other hand, above is a link to an article on Pfizer's profits, as it relates to the Covid treatments. Do you see the inversion of your argument? I do not assume that you are somehow motivated to further line the pockets of Pfizer, knowingly or unknowingly. Why do you assign that kind of intention or effect to anyone presenting arguments that are not ardently in support of mass vaccination?

www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/08/pfizer-covid-vaccine-pill-profits-sales

@peppathe3rd

You seem to be conflating several points at once

No-one is denying the pharmaceutical companies ("big pharma") make huge profits - not sure why the focus on just Pfizer though

This is irrelevant to the fact that various people are using the pandemic to profit, by pushing various snakeoils and anti-vaccine disinformation, and that being a high profile "anti-vaxxer" has been a career path long before coronavirus.

If people repeat these fake claims about vaccines/COVID etc on threads, people will post back and explain why they are incorrect. For whatever reason there has been an influx of these kinds of posts recently.

@bronzepig
You persistently assign financial motivations to people questioning the products that big pharma sell, especially if vaccinations are being considered. It is such a weak argument when one side is literally making billions, and the other is what ... peddling "snake oil," and applying for patents that are not implemented, losing medical licenses, etc... If you can document the "high-profile anti-vax" fortunes being made, I will consider your argument. Until then, I continue to deem your points inverted.

@SparklingJam

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this elsewhere, but the “Dr” John Campbell who’s video you linked to at the start of the thread is not the kind of doctor you think he is.

He is a Doctor of Philosophy and specialises in nurse training.

He’s about as qualified to speak on the efficacy and safety of vaccines as I am (which is to say I’m entitled to my opinion but it’s based on zero expertise in the area, and no specialised knowledge of the subject).

He knows full well that people seeing the name of his YouTube channel assume he’s a medical doctor when he’s nothing of the sort.

His videos have been absolutely chock full of errors and misunderstandings during the entire pandemic:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Campbell_(YouTuber)

Again - you seem to have completely misunderstood.

No one is claiming someone questioning or being vaccine hesitant is financially motivated.

If someone has these opinions then that's totally fair enough, but equally if they are making statements that are not true, other posters will point this out.

The fact that this disinformation comes from groups who are profitting from it, seems to have completely passed you by.

@bronzepig
I believe you have misunderstood, again.

"I do not assume that you are somehow motivated to further line the pockets of Pfizer, knowingly or unknowingly. Why do you assign that kind of intention or effect to anyone presenting arguments that are not ardently in support of mass vaccination? "

This is troubling... I'm not drawing any conclusions. I just wonder if any of the scientists, or physicians on this thread have insight? Long covid, climate change?

www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63097142

Have seen this doing the rounds in various "anti-vaccine" circles.

Obviously long COVID or climate change is not going to be a causative factor in this particular context - but I suspect that was a tad disengenous!

If you see a spike in neonatal deaths in a particular region, this suggests the fault is specific to that particular region. I would wager poorer maternal care during pregnancy, or poorer neonatal care after birth, possibly compounded by the impact of COVID on health services.

There is no reason prenatal exposure to a vaccine would cause neonatal death but only if you happen to live in one particular region of Scotland. The vaccine has been rolled out globally - this trend would be widepsread if causative.

Personally I take issue with anyone trying to use these poor family's tragedies as part of an anti-vaccine agenda.