Crazy shi*t people say about Covid and vaccines

[zafferana]

Tradesman comes to my house once a year and I've got to know him moderately well over the years as we always chat about holidays and our kids and stuff like that. Yesterday though I told him we're going away at half term and he told me the following:

*he knows a bloke who works for AstraZeneca who told him that he'd never get the vaccine and that he shouldn't either and that anyone who did was mad;

*he also knows someone who can get him an NHS vaccine pass for £500 and if he gets desperate enough for a holiday that's what he's going to do;

*he thinks it's very suspicious that the govt were encouraging everyone to get vaccinated and wonders why they did that;

*that he had a bad flu in December and was in bed for 10 days with it, but he didn't lose his taste and smell and never had a cough, so it definitely wasn't Covid, but he didn't test, because it was flu and he's had flu before, so he knows what it feels like and that's definitely what it was;

*that he's hoping that next year all the restrictions around the un-vaccinated will be lifted as he's pinning his hopes on finally being able to go skiing again in 2023.

This is a guy who LOVES to go skiing with his mates, who told me about a miserable UK glamping holiday he and his family had in the pouring rain last summer and how shit it was, yet he's prepared to keep doing that rather than get vaccinated. I wished him good luck. He asked me not to tell him about any holidays I'm going on 🤣🤣🤣

That article says nothing.

It actually says quite a bit in relation to the objective of the study. Here's the link to the published journal article:

Association Between Menstrual Cycle Length and Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Vaccination

And here's the abstract.

OBJECTIVE:
To assess whether coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) vaccination is associated with changes in cycle or menses length in those receiving vaccination as compared with an unvaccinated cohort.

METHODS:
We analyzed prospectively tracked menstrual cycle data using the application “Natural Cycles.” We included U.S. residents aged 18–45 years with normal cycle lengths (24–38 days) for three consecutive cycles before the first vaccine dose followed by vaccine-dose cycles (cycles 4–6) or, if unvaccinated, six cycles over a similar time period. We calculated the mean within-individual change in cycle and menses length (three prevaccine cycles vs first- and second-dose cycles in the vaccinated cohort, and the first three cycles vs cycles four and five in the unvaccinated cohort). We used mixed-effects models to estimate the adjusted difference in change in cycle and menses length between the vaccinated and unvaccinated cohorts.

RESULTS:
We included 3,959 individuals (vaccinated 2,403; unvaccinated 1,556). Most of the vaccinated cohort received the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine (55%) (Moderna 35%, Johnson & Johnson/Janssen 7%). Overall, COVID-19 vaccine was associated with a less than 1-day change in cycle length for both vaccine-dose cycles compared with prevaccine cycles (first dose 0.71 day-increase, 98.75% CI 0.47–0.94; second dose 0.91, 98.75% CI 0.63–1.19); unvaccinated individuals saw no significant change compared with three baseline cycles (cycle four 0.07, 98.75% CI −0.22 to 0.35; cycle five 0.12, 98.75% CI −0.15 to 0.39). In adjusted models, the difference in change in cycle length between the vaccinated and unvaccinated cohorts was less than 1 day for both doses (difference in change: first dose 0.64 days, 98.75% CI 0.27–1.01; second dose 0.79 days, 98.75% CI 0.40–1.18). Change in menses length was not associated with vaccination.

CONCLUSION:
Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) vaccination is associated with a small change in cycle length but not menses length.

But again, it's not saying why. By what mechanism is it altering cycle length, what organs or systems exactly are being impacted, and in what manner. Is it likely to cause any long term damage, or is it just on a par with getting a sore arm.
They don't actually know yet, which is fine, these things take time to be analysed. I'm grateful we have time quite frankly, as Omicron is shown to pose very little risk to kids and if / when a more dangerous strain emerges we will have more information.

It probably will be grand, but I'm happy to wait a few months for a more certain verdict.

So the mechanism, if there is one, must be to do with the spike protein or the immune response to it right?

I say that because I am 50, approaching menopause and have had irregular periods for the past year. They have been getting longer and longer apart, basically skipping them so that my cycle has been 40-60 days, and much lighter and only lasting a couple of days. I tested positive for covid on Monday, after a sore throat since the previous Friday, and my period started on the Tuesday, the day after I tested positive - only 2 weeks after the last one! I am still bleeding heavily, today on day 7. Even when I was 25, my periods did not last more than 4 or 5 days.

So whatever it is about the Covid 19 virus or it's spike protein - the bit that is used/expressed in the vaccines, if there is an effect from the vaccine, then there's an even more noticeable one from having Covid itself!

I appreciate that I have finished having children so it doesnt bother me as much as it might have done, but the only problem I can see with fertility is it may be messing with cycles a bit - as do many thing of course, I've skipped periods due to bad break ups and stress in the past - so I could see it would be annoying if it meant a couple months delay in predicting ovulation times etc, but I can't see any dire consequences on fertility from either the virus itself or the vaccine.

Oh and I had 2 x AZ and 1 x pfizer vaccination with no noticeable effects on my periods - although they are obviously not as regular as they used to be so I would not have noticed a day or two.

Having covid itself is the only time in my life I have had a period 2 weeks after a previous one though.

@FflosFfantastig

It's madness to have a vaccine just so you can go on holiday. I think those people are bonkers.

I have done this pre covid anyway.

Yellow fever is just one example.

There are plenty of countries that need you to have specific vaccines. The covid one his birthday different in that sense.

One of teen DD's main reasons for having her vaccines and booster was to make ravel easier. She's away soon and as a result of being fully vaccinated she needs no tests to go or to come back. One friend only had one so it's now costing him much more than the others as he needs tests to go, tests to return, tests when back and also test every 2-3 days when there if he wants to go to clubs etc

@Helloninjas

I know more people with vaccine injuries then covid after effects, honestly I don’t think the people on the OP are bonkers.

I don't know anyone who had much more than a sore arm and a headache for a day or two.

However I know several people who were ill with covid for much longer and some who have ongoing issues several months after, myself included.

Your acquaintances appear to be very unfortunate.

@Abraxan please read my follow up posts before your rehashed comment. 🙄

@Pennox

So the mechanism, if there is one, must be to do with the spike protein or the immune response to it right?

I say that because I am 50, approaching menopause and have had irregular periods for the past year. They have been getting longer and longer apart, basically skipping them so that my cycle has been 40-60 days, and much lighter and only lasting a couple of days. I tested positive for covid on Monday, after a sore throat since the previous Friday, and my period started on the Tuesday, the day after I tested positive - only 2 weeks after the last one! I am still bleeding heavily, today on day 7. Even when I was 25, my periods did not last more than 4 or 5 days.

So whatever it is about the Covid 19 virus or it's spike protein - the bit that is used/expressed in the vaccines, if there is an effect from the vaccine, then there's an even more noticeable one from having Covid itself!

I appreciate that I have finished having children so it doesnt bother me as much as it might have done, but the only problem I can see with fertility is it may be messing with cycles a bit - as do many thing of course, I've skipped periods due to bad break ups and stress in the past - so I could see it would be annoying if it meant a couple months delay in predicting ovulation times etc, but I can't see any dire consequences on fertility from either the virus itself or the vaccine.

Yes, same here. I also mentioned it up thread that my menstrual cycle was affected by covid itself. First time I caught covid my periods started when I was no where near due to start. This was before any covid vaccines. Then I caught covid twice after being double jabbed and the same happened and my menstrual cycle was affected. I’ve had covid 3 times and messed cycles 3 times. It also doesn’t matter if it’s mild covid or not as I had absolutely zero symptoms each time. I think it’s just how some people respond to covid as I know quite a few females have early periods when they caught covid. Never happened with any other virus either before either. For me, the fact that covid affects the menstrual cycles in some individuals and the covid vaccines trigger a similar response is very encouraging to see as the vaccines are making the immune system respond in the same way to actual covid. Genius scientists!

[quote Helloninjas]@Abraxan please read my follow up posts before your rehashed comment. 🙄[/quote]
You mentioned 3 relatives who have had ongoing side effects. I read them.
You mentioned you knew more people with issues following the vaccine than covid. So assume you also know more people than those three, or don't know anyone with side effects from covid itself.

I simply said that you were unfortunate to know lots of people to have suffered ongoing or prolonged vaccine side effects and said that I didn't know any. The only people I know who have prolonged issues have had them from covid itself, rather than the vaccine.

Just giving an opposite experience to balance your comment,
Everyone has different anecdotal experiences of these things.

@1dayatatime

The divine message that "we need to follow the science ", without recognising that scientific advice changes and that there are different scientific views. For example to begin with the scientific view that Covid was not airborne or using anti bacterial hand gel to combat a virus.

Sadly I feel that as a society we have moved on from the divine right of rule of the Church in the Middle Ages and then the divine right of rule of kings / Queens only for it now to be replaced by the divine rule of "experts".

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, yes. The above seems to imply that, now, our divine message is to 'follow the science', but we don't recognise that this science can evolve or different views can exist?

I think most people recognise that science is always gathering new evidence, and particularly in a fast-moving pandemic environment with scientists all over the globe collaborating, the sheer amount of studies is staggering. This has allowed new facts to be uncovered at an unprecedented rate. I would never expect stagnation.

@Dishh

Also the answer or advice you get from science will depend on the question you ask.

For example in the UK the question was "how do we stop the NHS being overwhelmed and stop people dying from Covid". This resulted in the advice on restrictions etc , which all seems fairly straightforward and logical until you look at Sweden.

The question asked in Sweden was not so short termist and asked "how do we stop the health service being overwhelmed and stop people dying from Covid AND what would be the secondary effects of this advice"

It concluded that the restrictions seen in other countries such as the UK and their impact on education, economy and government finances would in the long term cause more deaths and more societal damage than a lighter touch restrictions.

Of course only time will tell which approach was right but quoting Harold MacMillan
" History is apt to judge harshly those who sacrifice tomorrow for today"

Quickly approaching year three of all of this, and there are still people who think covid is a death sentence. People shocked that they caught covid despite being vaccinated and following all of the other guidance. People who insist that they would have died had they not had the vaccine.

@samyeagar hmm the first restrictions in the U.K. were announced in March 2020 so less than 2 years ago. Covid was first announced by WHO as a concern on 31st Dec 2019 so just over 2years ago, not rapidly approaching 3years quite yet.
Lots of people in public health were saying from the start the timeline for a pandemic is usually at least 2yrs so for lots of that community they aren't in the least surprised that it is still a public health concern.
Over 5million deaths and over 500 million confirmed cases means that it has had a confirmed impact on the worlds healthcare systems and the population that wasn't here 2years ago and that impact will be sustained due to the fact that there is a lingering effect on a significant number of the people infected.
A pandemic doesn't need to kill everybody to have far reaching implications.

For me, the fact that covid affects the menstrual cycles in some individuals and the covid vaccines trigger a similar response is very encouraging to see as the vaccines are making the immune system respond in the same way to actual covid. Genius scientists!

Totally agree with this - one of the only good things to have come out of the pandemic for me is the recognition that vaccine scientists (and other scientists) are some of our cleverest people and we should value them more. Including the government - who are a bunch of self-interested chancers.

Mind you I knew that at university when the science students had 37 hour weeks and the politics types were faffing around going to Art History lectures a couple of hours a week ......

@Iflyaway

the fans were flamed by a recent discovery of a new more virulent, highly transmissble strain of HIV in Europe.

Link please.

I read BBC and The Guardian every day. Seen nothing about it. (Different for gonorhea (sp?) though). I used to work for an aids organisation so like to be up on the news.

I just googled it and the first 5 hits gave me relevant articles.

Nothing to do with covid in reality but interesting for it's own sake.

www.ctvnews.ca/health/new-hiv-variant-with-more-damaging-health-impacts-discovered-in-netherlands-1.5766602

As far as concerns reasonable people might have rather than bizarre lizard implant stuff - I've certainly seen people who question whether or not there has been dishonesty about the research on efficacy and safety on the part of the companies involved. Pfizer in particular IIRC.

It's not like there isn't quite a lot of precedent for drug companies being dishonest about the results of studies and quashing the ones that don't give the results they want.

[quote 1dayatatime]@Dishh

Also the answer or advice you get from science will depend on the question you ask.

For example in the UK the question was "how do we stop the NHS being overwhelmed and stop people dying from Covid". This resulted in the advice on restrictions etc , which all seems fairly straightforward and logical until you look at Sweden.

The question asked in Sweden was not so short termist and asked "how do we stop the health service being overwhelmed and stop people dying from Covid AND what would be the secondary effects of this advice"

It concluded that the restrictions seen in other countries such as the UK and their impact on education, economy and government finances would in the long term cause more deaths and more societal damage than a lighter touch restrictions.

Of course only time will tell which approach was right but quoting Harold MacMillan
" History is apt to judge harshly those who sacrifice tomorrow for today"
[/quote]
Of course these risk assessments done in Sweden if done in the UK in the same way, may have still concluded that due to differences in cultural conformity, population density, genetic demographics and economic inequality may have meant the uk would still have done the same as it did, because they came to a different conclusion about which option had the most negative outcomes.

My point being that what works in one country doesn't necessarily transfer well to a different country.

A lighter touch in the uk could have been even more disastrous. Going quicker early on might have been better.

Equally our path may yet prove to be better longer term because we can return to no restrictions quicker than others because he have higher population immunity due to a combination acquired immunity and vaccines.

We need to wait for some years yet in terms of being able to assess direct and indirect effects and what is the best option for any future pandemic.

This is the first managed pandemic. I would say just about every western country has made some sort of mistake (applicable to their own country) to a degree and probably has done so very good things too.

The question becomes whether we can learn from these mistakes in terms of how prepared we are for another pandemic, which are more likely to become more common.

Some will learn lessons better than others...

[quote 1dayatatime]@Dishh

Also the answer or advice you get from science will depend on the question you ask.

For example in the UK the question was "how do we stop the NHS being overwhelmed and stop people dying from Covid". This resulted in the advice on restrictions etc , which all seems fairly straightforward and logical until you look at Sweden.

The question asked in Sweden was not so short termist and asked "how do we stop the health service being overwhelmed and stop people dying from Covid AND what would be the secondary effects of this advice"

It concluded that the restrictions seen in other countries such as the UK and their impact on education, economy and government finances would in the long term cause more deaths and more societal damage than a lighter touch restrictions.

Of course only time will tell which approach was right but quoting Harold MacMillan
" History is apt to judge harshly those who sacrifice tomorrow for today"
[/quote]
One of the odd things about this all has been that many people don't seem to realize that a good deal of what public health does isn't about the kind of research that happens in a lab or the science of a virus or anything like that.

Quite a lot is about human behaviour. What might people actually do. How long can people do certain things before fatigue sets in. How far can you modify people's natural daily lives, what will be the response if you try and force the issue.

This is one of the things that was notable with vaccination mandates and messaging to the hesitant. There is a ton of experience from health bodies, especially those working in vaccination in poor countries, on how to get people vaccinated when they are hesitant. Guess what - forcing it, shaming people, and cutting them out of public life is not the answer they have found works, quite the contrary, that tends to create significant distrust.

Sweden didn't get everything right, no one did - some decisions were bad, some were wrong guesses, etc. But they did step back and think - what can people sustain long term without creating other problems, and what will maintain unity in the population rather than division.

2boys & Pennox that's interesting and as you say, reassuring that Covid and the vaccines both can have an effect on menstruation.
It didn't for me, personally, I had 3 vaxx and 1 infection and 3 disruptions and 1 normal but that doesn't say too much on its own.

We are all aware that of the failings of big pharma, of politicians, of media messaging, and that has bred a certain cynicism that has come to bite us all back on the arse. In normal times a skeptical attitude is a fairly good thing to have, otherwise corruption would run even more unchecked. But its unfair to expect people to simply turn off that mindset on direction, and deeply unfair to vilify them. And counter productive.

Still, as I say above, I'm personally glad the Omicron wave is giving us all time to gather more data without being scared out of our wits.

I would rather follow scientific advice based on continually improved understanding of data by people who have been educated to a very high level in the techniques of such analysis than self-appointed social media influencers, politicians keen to keep their jobs at all costs and opportunist protesters looking for the next 'cause'.