Can someone explain to me New Zealand?

[idontknow54789]

Sorry for the ignorance/naivety here but can someone explain to me the reasonings behind such extreme lockdown measures in NZ? At the beginning of the pandemic they're approach was fully accepted but surely now with vaccines and omnicrom being a 'milder' form of covid they have to start setting sense? Is it about the health system? I understand there's a severe lack of ICU beds but is locking down so much really better for health? Can anyone explain it to me please?

@Tealightsandd

And again. If everywhere else had done the same as NZ, there would've been a hell of a lot less suffering all round. Because of course the pandemic would never have lasted two years (and counting).

Of course, zero covid everywhere! Just need a co-ordinated, simultaneous worldwide lockdown, no worries! Never mind that people living hand to mouth will die of thirst or starvation, no police, no doctors, no hospitals, no food deliveries, you get the idea. Seems entirely achievable!

If that doesn't work, maybe we can summon a genie from a magic lamp and make it our first wish that covid disappears in a puff of smoke!

@TheKeatingFive

NZ simply opted for the least amount of suffering.

Luckily for them, other countries were prepared to pick up the pieces and shelter their citizens when they turned their backs. Yes even Afghanistan under the Taliban. That's quite a thought.

Yep.

As I said before, it's really an incredibly entitled approach by their government. They're lucky enough that they've been permitted to get away with it.

They're lucky enough that they've been permitted to get away with it.

I'm surprised they haven't been legally challenged

@TheKeatingFive

They're lucky enough that they've been permitted to get away with it.

I'm surprised they haven't been legally challenged

Well, the excluded citizens have been quite widely spread and also the countries who've been covering the NZ government's responsibilities for it have generally had other priorities. So I think that explains it.

@Tealightsandd

Like I say. It's impossible pretty much not go have some people suffering in the extraordinary circumstances of a pandemic.

NZ simply opted for the least amount of suffering.

But that isnt what posters are trying to say. That there were ways that it could have been tweaked whilst still maintaining the border control they had.

Yes China may well have a system that meant that they could implement things quickly but we are 2 years into this pandemic they had time to do this without

And have you really thought through the suffering if every single country had simply shutdown end of March 2020?

Of course, zero covid everywhere! Just need a co-ordinated, simultaneous worldwide lockdown, no worries! Never mind that people living hand to mouth will die of thirst or starvation, no police, no doctors, no hospitals, no food deliveries, you get the idea. Seems entirely achievable!

Erm... Slightly hyperbolic!

The only country that totally shut borders and stopped all imports is North Korea.

NZ and others who employed temporary - and what could've been (had everywhere done the same) very short-term pandemic border controls (control, not full closure) still imported necessary food, medicine, etc.

The fact of them having a quarantine system is evidence of the fact of not completely closed borders.

The same principle applied for essential jobs.

@Tealightsandd - there's really not much point in trying to get the truth across to some of these posters. I mean, you would have to be pretty dense to believe the statement below:

Never mind that people living hand to mouth will die of thirst or starvation, no police, no doctors, no hospitals, no food deliveries, you get the idea.

However, that particular poster obviously thinks that it what happened - bizarre. Honestly, if I knew as little about what actually happened as they do I wouldn't be rushing into print with a load of crap and embarrassing myself!

@Tealightsandd

Of course, zero covid everywhere! Just need a co-ordinated, simultaneous worldwide lockdown, no worries! Never mind that people living hand to mouth will die of thirst or starvation, no police, no doctors, no hospitals, no food deliveries, you get the idea. Seems entirely achievable!

Erm... Slightly hyperbolic!

The only country that totally shut borders and stopped all imports is North Korea.

NZ and others who employed temporary - and what could've been (had everywhere done the same) very short-term pandemic border controls (control, not full closure) still imported necessary food, medicine, etc.

The fact of them having a quarantine system is evidence of the fact of not completely closed borders.

The same principle applied for essential jobs.

"Had everywhere done the same" really?!

Can you not hear how ridiculous that sounds? How completely unrealistic and unachievable that is? Are you honestly suggesting that some sort of worldwide plan of action could actually have been put in place? If you're not suggesting that then what are you suggesting?

It took 5 years to sort of halfway sort out Brexit, but I'm sure an universal approach to covid could have been agreed and implemented in a few weeks, no worries.

[quote SquirrelG]@Tealightsandd - there's really not much point in trying to get the truth across to some of these posters. I mean, you would have to be pretty dense to believe the statement below:

Never mind that people living hand to mouth will die of thirst or starvation, no police, no doctors, no hospitals, no food deliveries, you get the idea.

However, that particular poster obviously thinks that it what happened - bizarre. Honestly, if I knew as little about what actually happened as they do I wouldn't be rushing into print with a load of crap and embarrassing myself![/quote]
No, this is what would have happened in some countries if they imposed lockdowns. It cannot be done everywhere because lots of people need to leave their homes everyday to eat. That is one the many, many reasons why a worldwide zero covid approach was always entirely unachievable.

NZ simply opted for the least amount of suffering.

Who are you to measure the suffering of Kiwis shut out of their own country? Who are you to count the tears of children separated from the grandparents and cousins they love, of Maaori women forced to birth in countries that do not respect or even understand their customs (a taonga, I believe, that is protected in the treaty of Waitangi), of people forced to watch loved ones die over zoom? Especially when much of this could have been mitigated? I notice you still have not bothered to respond to any of the posts, like mine, calling for a better, better managed MIQ system and instead have insisted that people who wanted to get home could. How very "I'm alright, Jack" and heartless.

Today in NZ we have a convoy of trucks heading to parliament. The convoy is travelling with the aim to remove the mandates. I don't think many in the u.k understand the mandates here, or the passport system. It's not just healthcare that requires the employees to be vaxxed, its every employer in the country is required to have vaxxed employees. Not only that, but children from ages 5 and up are required to be vaxxed, and the govt have mandated masks for all children ages 8 and up, in school AND in extra curricular activites - and are starting to make noise about children aged 2 and up being masked.
This is insane. We never even had these level of restrictions with the first wave of covid. Many NZ'ers were on board with the restrictions in the begining when little was known about covid, but now that we know the strains are getting weaker, and people seem to able to recover from omicron without requiring hospitlization, these madates seem arbitrary and cruel. There are thousands of trucks in this convoy, and thousands more out on the streets supporting them, but the media isn't reporting on it and petrol stations have been ordered to close today. The convoy is stil going because farmers are offering up their own diesel to the truckers in attempt to keep it going. New Zealand is now a heavily divided country and I don't know how we will ever recover.

@SecondSwitchNZ

Today in NZ we have a convoy of trucks heading to parliament. The convoy is travelling with the aim to remove the mandates. I don't think many in the u.k understand the mandates here, or the passport system. It's not just healthcare that requires the employees to be vaxxed, its every employer in the country is required to have vaxxed employees. Not only that, but children from ages 5 and up are required to be vaxxed, and the govt have mandated masks for all children ages 8 and up, in school AND in extra curricular activites - and are starting to make noise about children aged 2 and up being masked. This is insane. We never even had these level of restrictions with the first wave of covid. Many NZ'ers were on board with the restrictions in the begining when little was known about covid, but now that we know the strains are getting weaker, and people seem to able to recover from omicron without requiring hospitlization, these madates seem arbitrary and cruel. There are thousands of trucks in this convoy, and thousands more out on the streets supporting them, but the media isn't reporting on it and petrol stations have been ordered to close today. The convoy is stil going because farmers are offering up their own diesel to the truckers in attempt to keep it going. New Zealand is now a heavily divided country and I don't know how we will ever recover.

I'm just going to correct some of the misinformation in your post.

1). Vaccinations for children are NOT mandatory. This is the choice of the patents.

2). Certain roles in health and disability, education, corrections, defence, Fire and Emergency New Zealand and Police must be vaccinated. Any other businesses/organisations etc that are requiring employees to be vaccinated do so through their own policies - they are NOT mandated by the government.

3). Mask wearing for children at school begins at year 4, so 7-8 year old. There has been a couple of articles in Stuff and NZ Herald that discuss the use of masks for children younger than 7 yrs but there is nothing to indicate that this will be mandated by the Govt at this current time.

1. Children do not HAVE to be vaxxed, but they will be excluded from activities if they are not vaxxed

1. If employers wish to run a business under red in the traffic light system, all employees on site must produce a vaccine passport or face a 12k fine.

1. Children are being bullied at school for not wearing a mask. This is cruel. Not only that, but playcentres have said no child can attend if there parent is not vaxxed. This is a vital ece service to thousands of nz families.

@TheKeatingFive MIQ has been legally challenged, multiple times, but only on the fact of the individual case. Every time, MBIE (the ministry administering MIQ) settles the case and finds the applicant an emergency MIQ spot.

On February 14, there will be a judicial review brought by Grounded Kiwis to challenge the legality of the whole MIQ system in terms of the Bill of Rights Act. MBIE has delayed the case as long as it possibly could - there have been 3 adjournments.

I have no doubt that MIQ will be found to breach the NZBORA. By the time the decision comes out it will be academic, as by end of Feb MIQ will have ceased to exist in its current form, but at the very least I hope the decision will protect us against future incarnations of it.

Children are being bullied at school for not wearing a mask. This is cruel.
If it is actual bullying, then yes it is cruel, and the schools need to deal with it. If it is being reminded to wear a mask by one's peers when one has been indoctrinated by anti-mask parents, then it isn't bullying. I'm seeing a lot of people on all sides of this argument claim someone is "bullying" them when all they are getting is robust disagreement.

Not only that, but playcentres have said no child can attend if there parent is not vaxxed. This is a vital ece service to thousands of nz families.
Mmmmhmmm and many of those families have children with vulnerabilities. Around 1/7 kids is either obese, has asthma or both. 1/500 kids has type 1 diabetes. Add in the number of kids with cancer, or some kind of immunological issue, and you get to WAY more than the 5% of New Zealanders who have made a choice not to be vaccinated. Vaccines for under 5s aren't available yet, so the only way to protect them is vaccinated adults. This is good, socially just health policy.

If employers wish to run a business under red in the traffic light system, all employees on site must produce a vaccine passport or face a 12k fine.

What a load of rubbish!

@SecondSwitchNZ

1. Children do not HAVE to be vaxxed, but they will be excluded from activities if they are not vaxxed

1. If employers wish to run a business under red in the traffic light system, all employees on site must produce a vaccine passport or face a 12k fine.

1. Children are being bullied at school for not wearing a mask. This is cruel. Not only that, but playcentres have said no child can attend if there parent is not vaxxed. This is a vital ece service to thousands of nz families.

Thanks for clarifying.

1. you stated quite clearly in your original post that "... children from ages 5 and up are required to be vaxxed" which seemed to imply that vaccination for this age group is mandatory. What you meant was, that quite possibly in the future, (but we don't really know yet) that children will be required to a vaccination pass to participate in extra curricular activities not that the vaccination is mandatory. I'm possibly splitting hairs but I think it's important to get this information correct.

2. Businesses that require it's employees to be vaccinated are those in entertainment, recreation, or exercise. I think we can safely say that there are a large number of businesses and organisations in NZ that don't fall into these categories. So, not ALL businesses are mandated to have vaccinated staff. In fact, employers can only ask for vaccination status if there is a lawful reason to do so. There is some really useful information about all of this here www.employment.govt.nz/leave-and-holidays/other-types-of-leave/coronavirus-workplace/covid-19-vaccination-and-employment/

And www.business.govt.nz/covid-19/covid-19-protection-framework/entertainment-recreation-and-exercise/

3). Bully in schools re non-mask wearing. Obviously this should not be tolerated and should be dealt with by the schools as per their Anti-Bullying policies.

4). Playcentres: yes, this is a tricky one. However, children won't be denied an ECE in other settings such as a day care or kindy based on the parents vaccination status. Although, I do recognise that many parents prefer Playcenter over the other settings of ECE as they can stay with their children.

If 1 in 7 children are obese or have asthma, then banning them from sports and rec facilities and insisting on masks which hamper their breathing then no, it is not good social health policy. Those kids are going to get more obese and suffer more respiratory issues.

80% of people in nz won't even know they have omicron its THAT mild. These mandates are ludicrous

If 1 in 7 children are obese or have asthma, then banning them from sports and rec facilities and insisting on masks which hamper their breathing then no, it is not good social health policy. Those kids are going to get more obese and suffer more respiratory issues.
Er...what does this have to do with playgroup, which neither has a mask mandate nor are they a sport and rec facility, and requires adult vaccination, not child vaccination? Also, masks simply do not hamper breathing under normal circumstances, and if they do, people are exempt from wearing them in NZ: www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-health-advice-public/covid-19-use-face-masks-community/covid-19-advice-people-who-are-unable-wear-face-mask. They are also not required outside, or in indoor sport and rec facilities in New Zealand: covid19.govt.nz/traffic-lights/life-at-red/sport-and-recreation-at-red/recreation-at-red/. Vaccination is good personal health policy for kids who are at risk due to underlying conditions www.abc.net.au/news/health/2022-01-13/covid-19-coronavirus-how-omicron-variant-affect-kids-children/100751058.

80% of people in nz won't even know they have omicron its THAT mild. These mandates are ludicrous

Where are you getting that statistic from? Even the article linked above about kids says that only 1/5 are asymptomatic. And for the people for whom it isn't mild? We should just let them suffer, rather than endure the minor inconvenience of wearing a mask?

For the people who it isn't mild, a winter cold is also risky for them. Do we place restrictions on the whole country for that?

Have you given any thought to the massive mental health crisis that these restrictions have caused? Or are you not bothered by those who suffer from mental health issues?

For the people who it isn't mild, a winter cold is also risky for them. Do we place restrictions on the whole country for that?
Evidence? The common cold certainly doesn't kill over 100 people a week in Australia under normal circumstances, so the burden of proof is on you here.

Have you given any thought to the massive mental health crisis that these restrictions have caused? Or are you not bothered by those who suffer from mental health issues?
Which restrictions exactly? Lockdown? I live in one of the most locked down cities in the world, so yeah I've given it some thought and looked into the evidence. There isn't good evidence that lots of people dying is a better outcome, though lockdown hasn't been great for kids. Vaccination and an open society +/-masks is a much better approach. Masks? Vaccination? Also, do you have evidence for the "massive mental health crisis" beyond lots of people on the internet saying they don't like restrictions? NZ has an ongoing problem with support for mental health (and your post makes a lot of assumptions about me and what I might know), but I personally haven't seen evidence of a widespread crisis related to COVID that is worse than elsewhere--quite the reverse in fact.

Also...do you actually have any point that you can back up? Because so far every time I've addressed one of your points you've raised a new one, rather than address my response. That's called whataboutery, and is a known strategy of those attempting to spread misinformation online. Is that what you're trying to do?

@SecondSwitchNZ

For the people who it isn't mild, a winter cold is also risky for them. Do we place restrictions on the whole country for that? - You claim to be a nurse ( which I am seriously beginning to doubt) so you should be able to figure out why this is such a ridiculous question.

If you are concerned about your or your child's mental health perhaps you could discuss with the GP. Many regions offer PHO funded counselling. Your child/ren may be able to access counselling services through their school. You could also do something proactive, such as googling Mental health support NZ. The amount of time you've spent posting on here with a lot of "whataboutary" (what a wonderful term) you could have googled a lot of that information and got yourself on the road to getting support for yourself and your family.

You said in another post that there is a lot of division in NZ. Unfortunately, I think you are part of the problem. You have posted half truths at best and straight out lies and confabulations at worst.

You also said in earlier post that you lost your job as you refused to have a vaccine passport. Again, this is another factually incorrect statement you have made. Health services do not accept vaccine passport as proof of vaccination status but require a copy of vaccinations records downloaded from the My Health portal. So, you could have retained your job if you so choose, but no you didn't because it doesn't fit with the victim narrative that you seem to want to espouse.

Perhaps you would be happier living in the UK.

I'm glad to see others have pointed out the misinformation in that post. I don't feel we are living under strict restrictions at all tbh. I don't get these people who are protesting in their convoys. They were originally protesting about lockdowns but now we aren't in lockdown they're whinging about the masks and mandates that are supposed to help prevent lockdowns. I also don't recognize this so called "divided nation" either. The only people I hear saying this stuff are the anti vax/anti mask conspiracy nuts who thankfully represent a small proportion of our population. The rest of us are getting on with it. Even my kids have surprised me with their willingness to wear their masks at school this week. They seem to be getting used to it already.

Perhaps you would be happier living in the UK.

It might be a good idea if that poster did go to the UK - I'm not sure a health professional with such a loose grasp on the truth is what we want here!

I also don't recognize this so called "divided nation" either. The only people I hear saying this stuff are the anti vax/anti mask conspiracy nuts who thankfully represent a small proportion of our population.

I agree. There is no evidence of a "divided nation" where I live, other than those people you mention, who are in the minority.