Can someone explain to me New Zealand?

[idontknow54789]

Sorry for the ignorance/naivety here but can someone explain to me the reasonings behind such extreme lockdown measures in NZ? At the beginning of the pandemic they're approach was fully accepted but surely now with vaccines and omnicrom being a 'milder' form of covid they have to start setting sense? Is it about the health system? I understand there's a severe lack of ICU beds but is locking down so much really better for health? Can anyone explain it to me please?

"Had everywhere done the same" really?!

Can you not hear how ridiculous that sounds? How completely unrealistic and unachievable that is? Are you honestly suggesting that some sort of worldwide plan of action could actually have been put in place? If you're not suggesting that then what are you suggesting?

It’s odd how based in fantasy some posts are. When it comes to other areas there’s practically a ‘science and medicine’ mantra repeated but with this - make believe.

@Cousinit, @SquirrelG
Check out twitter #Dumbkirk regarding the South Island convoy. Not sure if true or not 🤣

Wow, that's hilarious! No idea if it's true but entirely plausible I would say

@MarshaBradyo

"Had everywhere done the same" really?!

Can you not hear how ridiculous that sounds? How completely unrealistic and unachievable that is? Are you honestly suggesting that some sort of worldwide plan of action could actually have been put in place? If you're not suggesting that then what are you suggesting?

It’s odd how based in fantasy some posts are. When it comes to other areas there’s practically a ‘science and medicine’ mantra repeated but with this - make believe.

Well worldwide policy would not be without precedent. There is the (global) war on drugs.

But anyway, given anyone with a tiny bit of foresight - or even the ability to see beyond the middle of next week and an ounce of common sense would kind of understand basic infection control. As in stop the virus from spreading aka preventing transmission = no more virus (except possibly the odd little outbreak that, being minor, is easily dealt with through short term temporary isolation and management.

Check out Dr
Satoshi Akima, who explains the basic fact very simply:

Proof that believing in physics works against this virus. Stop airborne spread, stop the virus, and you don't need lockdowns and you won't overwhelm your hospitals. It's as simple as that

But anyway, given anyone with a tiny bit of foresight - or even the ability to see beyond the middle of next week and an ounce of common sense would kind of understand basic infection control.

You really do live in a world where nothing else exists apart from (covid) infection control, don't you?

No poverty, hunger, conflict, violence, border disputes, much more deadly diseases. Nothing.

I'm not sure I totally understood you until this thread, but I get it now. You live in the most privileged little bubble, where covid can take up so much headspace because you literally haven't anything else to worry about.

You can't conceive of why a poor, conflict-stricken country can't just lockdown, close borders and eliminate covid. You are just incapable of getting that.

It's been illuminating.

@Tealightsandd - the war on drugs campaign that started in 1971 and in 2011 stated
The global war on drugs has failed, with devastating consequences for individuals and societies around the world.

And in 2021 the US is facing its worst ever crisis.

There are things which would be great in theory and could and should work. But simply fail in practice. None of what you say is theoretically wrong and in a lovely ideal world may well be possible.

But here in the real world it just doesnt and wouldnt. Look at the turn this thread has taken for one! The division in NZ may only be a minority one but that are vocal

As for the denial of science and medicine 'protestors' (who are, in NZ, a minority). The #Dumbkirk stuff suggests they might be rather lacking in the common sense department.

Are they linked in any way and/or supportive of the far right Nazi flag waving 'freedom' truckers in Ottawa?

Trudeau and his family got themselves evacuated out...due to the 'freedom' crew's aggressive and intimidating behaviour - including towards HCP trying to get to work (to help patients).

That mob is definitely not a group I'd want to have any association with or support for.

I wasn't commenting on whether the war on drugs was/is a sensible policy. Simply it's an example of global policy. Whether that policy is wrong is another matter.

@TheKeatingFive You really do live in a world where nothing else exists apart from (covid) infection control, don't you?

No poverty, hunger, conflict, violence, border disputes, much more deadly diseases. Nothing.

This. This is what I am getting at. Yes, the ORIGINAL strain of covid would have had a catastrophic impact on NZ if we hadn't locked down and kept the virus out. And we did it without mandates. The latest strain, whilst contagious, is considerably weaker, and the majority of cases do not require hospitalisation. So there is no need for the government to bring in vaccine passports.

We have many other issues facing New Zealanders that require urgent attention. We have a horrifically high domestic violence rates, childhood poverty, teen suicide, housing crises, etc. Lockdown in nz resulted in at least 6 children being murdered by the parents. Parents who were unable to access support because funding had been withdrawn due to covid. Yes, covid is bad. But we need to balance things better and the mandates are causing genuine harm and long lasting damage to many kiwis.

@Tealightsandd

As for the denial of science and medicine 'protestors' (who are, in NZ, a minority). The #Dumbkirk stuff suggests they might be rather lacking in the common sense department.

Are they linked in any way and/or supportive of the far right Nazi flag waving 'freedom' truckers in Ottawa?

Trudeau and his family got themselves evacuated out...due to the 'freedom' crew's aggressive and intimidating behaviour - including towards HCP trying to get to work (to help patients).

That mob is definitely not a group I'd want to have any association with or support for.

I think many definitely identify as supporters of right wing parties but I'm not sure if they are linked in any way to the Canadian groups. I know a few anti vaxxer/freedumb types and they are quite a diverse bunch but whatever their political leanings a lack of common sense is what unites them.

[quote SecondSwitchNZ]@TheKeatingFive You really do live in a world where nothing else exists apart from (covid) infection control, don't you?

No poverty, hunger, conflict, violence, border disputes, much more deadly diseases. Nothing.

This. This is what I am getting at. Yes, the ORIGINAL strain of covid would have had a catastrophic impact on NZ if we hadn't locked down and kept the virus out. And we did it without mandates. The latest strain, whilst contagious, is considerably weaker, and the majority of cases do not require hospitalisation. So there is no need for the government to bring in vaccine passports.

We have many other issues facing New Zealanders that require urgent attention. We have a horrifically high domestic violence rates, childhood poverty, teen suicide, housing crises, etc. Lockdown in nz resulted in at least 6 children being murdered by the parents. Parents who were unable to access support because funding had been withdrawn due to covid. Yes, covid is bad. But we need to balance things better and the mandates are causing genuine harm and long lasting damage to many kiwis.[/quote]
Actually I am pretty sure I read that while the current strain is much weaker than Delta, it is comparable to the original strain in terms of severity. The thing that makes all the difference now is vaccines. And of course we didn't use mandates to control the virus in the first wave. We had no vaccines then so our only available tool was lockdown.

@Tealightsandd

I wasn't commenting on whether the war on drugs was/is a sensible policy. Simply it's an example of global policy. Whether that policy is wrong is another matter.

It’s not that the policy was wrong the ideals of it are good it’s just next to impossible to implement

Plus it has always been a US driven policy world is perhaps a misnomer

Actually I am pretty sure I read that while the current strain is much weaker than Delta, it is comparable to the original strain in terms of severity.

I don't think that's the case. Mostly because of it's much reduced ability to infect the lungs.

Vaccine mandates/passes are being dropped all over Europe. In an omicron era, they're very hard to justify.

@TheKeatingFive

But anyway, given anyone with a tiny bit of foresight - or even the ability to see beyond the middle of next week and an ounce of common sense would kind of understand basic infection control.

You really do live in a world where nothing else exists apart from (covid) infection control, don't you?

No poverty, hunger, conflict, violence, border disputes, much more deadly diseases. Nothing.

I'm not sure I totally understood you until this thread, but I get it now. You live in the most privileged little bubble, where covid can take up so much headspace because you literally haven't anything else to worry about.

You can't conceive of why a poor, conflict-stricken country can't just lockdown, close borders and eliminate covid. You are just incapable of getting that.

It's been illuminating.

Oh dear. If all else fails, if you have no convincing argument, resort to that old favourite.... Untrue accusations and personal insults/attacks. Right oh.

It is the more privileged who are less likely (less, but not definitely) to be killed or disabled by Covid. SARS-COV-2 disproportionately affects the poor, the elderly, the disabled - and some minority ethnic groups.

Not to mention the terrible mental health impact. Including for children, who lose a parent young - and also the increased poverty caused to the many families with a Long Covid victim - including many parents, who too ill to work.

Refusal to accept necessary measures required to protect lives, health, and the economy, during the extraordinary circumstances of a pandemic.

Now that has been pushed by people in positions of privilege. One example (of many) is the tracing of the majority of vaccine disinformation back.to a small number of very wealthy individuals.

Btw. If you've got concerns over poverty and other social issues, do feel free to pop in to the many threads that are discussing this (including possible solutions). I'll look out for you later.

I'm off for another ☕.
Goodnight to those in NZ on here
😷💉

Oh dear. If all else fails, if you have no convincing argument, resort to that old favourite.... Untrue accusations and personal insults/attacks

There's absolutely nothing untrue or particularly personal about what I've said. The fact that you are even raising the idea that every country could have done what NZ did demonstrates so clearly what bubble you live in. Like I say it's been extremely enlightening. 😉

@TheKeatingFive

Actually I am pretty sure I read that while the current strain is much weaker than Delta, it is comparable to the original strain in terms of severity.

I don't think that's the case. Mostly because of it's much reduced ability to infect the lungs.

Vaccine mandates/passes are being dropped all over Europe. In an omicron era, they're very hard to justify.

Yes, that's what I thought too so I was surprised to read that it is at best only slightly less severe than the original strain. Wish I could remember where I'd read it! It was definitely one of the usual epidemiologists we're used to hearing from in NZ.

This isn't the original article I was thinking off but it covers the same ground and an interesting read...
i.stuff.co.nz/national/explained/127622391/covid19-nz-is-it-really-a-good-idea-to-call-omicron-mild

@TheKeatingFive

Actually I am pretty sure I read that while the current strain is much weaker than Delta, it is comparable to the original strain in terms of severity.

I don't think that's the case. Mostly because of it's much reduced ability to infect the lungs.

Vaccine mandates/passes are being dropped all over Europe. In an omicron era, they're very hard to justify.

You might think (wrongly) that Omicron is mild, but many of the expert virologists, epidemiologists, immunologists, and others disagree.

Not only because of Long Covid risks.

There's also the data, eg. on deaths, that says otherwise (1000s a week in the UK are not dying 'mild' deaths).

And that high number is even without the little tricks - like not including all reinfection deaths, or any of the deaths from damage caused by the acute initial infection but the patient no longer tests positive.

And vaccine passes/mandates are not being dropped all over Europe (and definitely not masks). Austria has only just introduced a vaccine mandate. Meanwhile, France, Spain, and others have not dropped the passes.

Definitely off for my now.

Enjoy your day/evening All.

😷💉

At the last press conference Chris Whitty and Patrick V did confirm it was milder

I remember it because it was the first time the narrative changed.

How much milder - ie compared to original I’d have to have a read around

Up to that point any suggestion was mooted or ‘we cannot expect that it is’, especially waved away on here, and it was surprising that it was just said rather than had a sense of an update.

It's much easier to have all the answers when you never have to give any thought to the practicalities of how those "answers" are implemented.

In the early stages of the pandemic the WHO advised against border closures. The idea that, with that being the state of play, it would be realistic that every single leader of every country in the world would agree to place huge, unprecedented restrictions on borders, simultaneously, and then be in a position to adequately police those borders to enforce the restrictions is completely bonkers.

I doubt very much that Boris, Trump, Putin and Bolsonaro could agree on which wine should be served at dinner, never mind simultaneous border restrictions!

And vaccine passes/mandates are not being dropped all over Europe

U.K. ROI, Denmark, Sweden, Norway

Alright one final one for now from the 'bubble^ that i share with many of the experts.

Don't know if it's a 'bubble' but your views certainly come across as inspired by a western centricness, or at least British exceptionalism.

We are not more special than NZ, Taiwan, South Korea, Thailand, Japan, Vietnam and other Asian countries. Nor Africa (much of which also put in place pandemic border controls).

It was the wealthy west (NZ, and initially Australia too, excepted) that dragged the pandemic out by failing to do the same.

This is an interesting article.
Exceptionalism at the Time of covid-19: Where Nationalism Meets Irrationality

brill.com/view/journals/dyp/aop/article-10.1163-24689300-bja10025/article-10.1163-24689300-bja10025.xml

You want UK to be like Ireland? Then we must do a looomng lockdown.

Oh and they're keeping the mask mandate.

Don't know if it's a 'bubble' but your views certainly come across as inspired by a western centricness, or at least British exceptionalism.

We are not more special than NZ, Taiwan, South Korea, Thailand, Japan, Vietnam and other Asian countries. Nor Africa (much of which also put in place pandemic border controls).

Actually I'm not talking about any of those countries. More about those that are too poor and chaotic and caught up with other problems to be in any position to implement lockdowns and border closures like you think everyone should have done.

But I understand that these countries don't even register with you. I get that.