Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Can someone explain to me New Zealand?

791 replies

idontknow54789 · 27/01/2022 20:45

Sorry for the ignorance/naivety here but can someone explain to me the reasonings behind such extreme lockdown measures in NZ? At the beginning of the pandemic they're approach was fully accepted but surely now with vaccines and omnicrom being a 'milder' form of covid they have to start setting sense? Is it about the health system? I understand there's a severe lack of ICU beds but is locking down so much really better for health? Can anyone explain it to me please?

OP posts:
Tealightsandd · 07/02/2022 22:50
  • gushes
greenteafiend · 08/02/2022 00:45

”Africa” is not a thing. I mean, it's the name of a continent but it comprises countries with very different realities. There are middle incoe countries like South Africa and Botswana, and also many poor and very poor countries. The strategies adopted by these countries are different, and rightly so.

South Africa (a classic example of a middle income country) we have seen. Like so many middle income countries, they were very hard hit by the pandemic, in spite of many attempts at severe lockdowns. They sure as heck did not keep the virus out.

Many African countries did close their immigration procedures, but you can't actually close borders in the poor countries of Africa because their borders are porous. I mean, have you ever been to the Sahel? Much of the borders basically consists of invisible lines in woodlands or standing stones in the desert! You can't stop people moving in and out.

Genuinely amused by the very idea that someone could think that the reason we haven't heard much from the poorer African countries is clearly because they adopted zero covid policies and kept the virus out through border controls.

We haven't heard much from the poorer African countries because they have an average population age of about 20 and most people are simply not getting sick enough to create much attention. There are only small numbers of elderly people in these countries (and medically frail people mostly die of something else, before covid has the chance to get them); also, at the risk of sounding a bit horrible, the reality is that in somewhere like South Sudan, a "70-80-something person dying of a bad chest one year" (the kind of metric that rich countries think of as something to avoid) tends to be considered part and parcel of life.

As a result, the virus has largely washed through these countries, even in advance of vaccination.

www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2022/01/28/1072591923/africa-may-have-reached-the-pandemics-holy-grail

Before the omicron wave, Malawi didn't seem to have been hit too hard by COVID-19. Even by July of last year, when Malawi had already gone through several waves of the coronavirus, Jambo says it appeared that only a tiny share of Malawians had been infected.

"Probably less than 10% [of the population], if we look at the number of individuals that have tested positive," says Jambo.

The number of people turning up in hospitals was also quite low — even during the peak of each successive COVID-19 wave in Malawi.

Jambo knew this likely masked what had really been going on in Malawi. The country's population is very young — it has a median age of around 18, he notes. This suggests most infections prior to omicron's arrival were probably asymptomatic ones unlikely to show up in official tallies. People wouldn't have felt sick enough to go to the hospital. And coronavirus tests were in short supply in the country and therefore were generally used only for people with severe symptoms or who needed tests for travel.

So to fill in the true picture, Jambo and his collaborators turned to another potential source of information: a repository of blood samples that had been collected from Malawians month after month by the national blood bank. And they checked how many of those samples had antibodies for the coronavirus. Their finding: By the start of Malawi's third COVID-19 wave with the delta variant last summer, as much as 80% of the population had already been infected with some strain of the coronavirus.

"There was absolutely no way we would have guessed that this thing had spread that much," says Jambo.

Similar studies have been done in other African countries, including Kenya, Madagascar and South Africa, adds Jambo. "And practically in every place they've done this, the results are exactly the same" — very high prevalence of infection detected well before the arrival of the omicron variant.

Tealightsandd · 08/02/2022 01:28

South Africa (a classic example of a middle income country) we have seen. Like so many middle income countries, they were very hard hit by the pandemic, in spite of many attempts at severe lockdowns. They sure as heck did not keep the virus out.

But they would have - if privileged western countries (NZ and Australia excepted) had done the same... Because of course, had that happened, there would never have been a long lasting pandemic. Omicron would never have happened.

Btw, I can only speak for my own African friends (from various different African countries) but definitely they find that narrow image of (the continent) of Africa quite offensive.

They don't actually all 'just die young from something else'. Nor do they, even in the poorest countries, just shrug about it.

And there may be fewer older people - but there is still quite a lot. The view of most of my African friends is that the average age of 20 thing can be misleading.

It's like London. Younger on a average population than many other UK cities, because of lots of younger people moving there - but the many older people are still there too (London has more elderly than anywhere else in the UK).

greenteafiend · 08/02/2022 05:57

If you look at the population pyramid of a place like Malawi or South Sudan, you will see that the number of elderly is very small compared to the UK. It's not London. London has unusual demographics.

They don't actually all 'just die young from something else'. Nor do they, even in the poorest countries, just shrug about it.

I didn't say they did. I was talking about medically frail individuals with complex medical needs. And I was talking about the poorest African countries, not places like Botswana or SA which are middle income countries.

VikingOnTheFridge · 08/02/2022 06:43

Excellent post greenteafiend.

Quartz2208 · 08/02/2022 07:39

Statements like this though @Tealightsandd

But they would have - if privileged western countries (NZ and Australia excepted) had done the same.

Completely ignore the differences between them though. The advantages both had in being able to do this cannot be ignore.

New Zealand and Australia closed borders on the 19th March

The US shut its land borders with Canada and Mexico on the 21st March and Europe around the same time (these dates might be slightly out it is hard to gauge exactly when it happened). It didnt fully reopen until November 8th.

Because you seem to think a worldwide working together would have happened. Both the US and Australia highlight the fact that even within a country federal Governments react very differently and getting any sort of agreement there is impossible.

JuergenSchwarzwald · 08/02/2022 15:24

@TheKeatingFive

They're lucky enough that they've been permitted to get away with it.

I'm surprised they haven't been legally challenged

They have. Not sure if the hearing has happened yet, but it was reported in the Times that the hotel quarantine scheme has been challenged in the NZ courts. Not by other countries, if that was what you meant, but certainly by NZ citizens trapped overseas.
SantaClawsServiette · 08/02/2022 16:36

What is really scary to think about are the ongoing implications of the idea that a country can lock out any of it's own citizens for the "common good".

There is a reason nations are not allowed to make people stateless.

The right to live as a citizen on the soil of their country is probably about the most basic element of citizenship. Without it the rest is meaningless.

Do we seriously want a world where people think it is ok for nations to create groups of stateless people?

Back a few years ago when there was an outbreak of Ebola, there were people from other places like here in Canada who had caught it and still needed to return to their home countries. And their countries took them, had to take them.

The idea that a place like Canada can figure out how to bring in a citizen with ebola safely, but NZ can't take citizens who might possibly have covid which is already in NZ anyway, is not only crazy, but stupid.

Queuing4Fergs · 09/02/2022 07:49

Totally agree with you, SantaClawsServiette

sashagabadon · 09/02/2022 08:29

Yes I agree I’m surprised many NZ support the harsh border closures and think it is ok ( and many do, my relatives for example)
They obviously think they will never fall foul of this in the future or can’t foresee it could ever be used against them or people they love.
But I’m not sure I support countries with over staying NZelanders ( of which there would be many in the U.K.) should have deported these people and forced NZ to take them.
That sort of precedent has implications too.
My nephew was actually in NZ for a lot of 2020. They were keen to see him return to U.K. but did let him stay. Actually he wanted to come back and it was the flight situation that stopped him rather than NZ.
If the reverse had happened and the U.K. had closed our borders to him ( which obviously they didn’t) then he would have had to stay presumably supported by the NZ government.

taxidermissy · 09/02/2022 09:13

The NZ government denies they have closed the border. They say it has been managed and you will get back but perhaps not when you wanted to.
What makes me very miffed is during the " management " somehow non citizen deemed essential managed to get it.
WtF is essential about a DJ who thrice gained an MIQ space ?
They have kiwi DJs FFS.
I have never heard anyone defend this inequality.

Many lost the chance to see family for the last time but its all OK because we have given them a dance party.

sashagabadon · 09/02/2022 09:25

I guess that is the question that will be tested in the courts. Were so many obstacles put in place that it was in practice a closed border for many people. Assuming you need a system Is a random system acceptable rather than an old fashioned queue? It’s an interesting question!

MarchCrocus · 09/02/2022 14:21

@sashagabadon

Yes I agree I’m surprised many NZ support the harsh border closures and think it is ok ( and many do, my relatives for example) They obviously think they will never fall foul of this in the future or can’t foresee it could ever be used against them or people they love. But I’m not sure I support countries with over staying NZelanders ( of which there would be many in the U.K.) should have deported these people and forced NZ to take them. That sort of precedent has implications too. My nephew was actually in NZ for a lot of 2020. They were keen to see him return to U.K. but did let him stay. Actually he wanted to come back and it was the flight situation that stopped him rather than NZ. If the reverse had happened and the U.K. had closed our borders to him ( which obviously they didn’t) then he would have had to stay presumably supported by the NZ government.
I agree the least worst situation in the face of NZ government piss taking was probably the UK and other countries where New Zealand citizens were stranded simply making provision for them to legally stay. Especially with everything else that's been going on in the past 2 years.

It's just that the New Zealand government are lucky that the rest of the world responded so indulgently to their abdication of responsibility. And I'm not sure the people arguing that NZ is somehow being unfairly treated or hard done to because of the criticism have quite understood this.

PinkTonic · 09/02/2022 18:44

@sashagabadon

I guess that is the question that will be tested in the courts. Were so many obstacles put in place that it was in practice a closed border for many people. Assuming you need a system Is a random system acceptable rather than an old fashioned queue? It’s an interesting question!
Also that based on various sports people, celebs and the aforementioned DJ there was clearly a way to bypass the random system, but this was not available to citizens with compassionate grounds to get back quickly. Or if there was an expedited process the criteria for acceptance certainly weren’t very KIND.
Queuing4Fergs · 10/02/2022 22:31

It is the utter hypocrisy that is so galling. "Be kind" "team of 5 million". Meaningless soundbites.

livinthedream1995 · 11/02/2022 12:22

@FrostyGirl66

And if they ever do open back up, they'll have a massive surge of cases because they've locked down for so long.
This is exactly what happened in Australia. Within a couple of weeks of opening the borders, their cases shot up. Shocking! My step mum (who lives in aus with my dad and their 3 kids) has covid currently after not even having hardly any cases in their local area for 2 years. I think their peak is coming down now but at one point a few weeks ago they were approaching nearly 100k cases a day.

But it needed to happen, you can’t shut yourself out forever. It just doesn’t work.

Kitkat151 · 14/02/2022 23:26

[quote AlecTrevelyan006]Virus gonna virus

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/14/nz-covid-outbreak-like-nothing-weve-experienced-ardern-says-as-cases-skyrocket[/quote]
Yup

2X4B523P · 14/02/2022 23:28

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/freedom-convoy-protests-new-zealand-manilow-b2014031.html

They was trying to disperse protesters by playing Barry Manilow songs on repeat. It could have been worse though, they could have played Easy Street by the Collapsable Hearts Club on perpetual loop!

CallItLoneliness · 15/02/2022 06:09

[quote AlecTrevelyan006]Virus gonna virus

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/14/nz-covid-outbreak-like-nothing-weve-experienced-ardern-says-as-cases-skyrocket[/quote]
Yeah, and the people of Queenstown who were begging for open borders now don't know how to cope. Your point is? NZ has at least managed to get well over 90% of the adult population vaccinated first....

Tealightsandd · 15/02/2022 15:04

Virus gonna virus

Yes. Kill and disable - and spread (and mutate) when humans give it opportunity to.

Hence, the sensible approach being mitigations to limit the damage.

Masks gonna mask, and ventilation's gonna ventilate.

Likewise, car crash is gonna car crash.

Seat belt's gonna seat belt, and speeding limit's gonna limit speeding.

Quartz2208 · 15/02/2022 20:01

Have you had it yet teaslight and did you mask wear then all the time? And keep your house ventilated?

You have such an idealistic view of how this should work

Seat belts were invented in 1800s compulsory in cars in the uk in 1968 and to wear in 1983. And still people didn’t always (v high profile death example)

I’m on holiday in a place that removed mask restrictions on Saturday by today no one is wearing them (not Uk)

Sunshinegirl82 · 15/02/2022 20:09

@Quartz2208

Have you had it yet teaslight and did you mask wear then all the time? And keep your house ventilated?

You have such an idealistic view of how this should work

Seat belts were invented in 1800s compulsory in cars in the uk in 1968 and to wear in 1983. And still people didn’t always (v high profile death example)

I’m on holiday in a place that removed mask restrictions on Saturday by today no one is wearing them (not Uk)

Indeed! Ideas are such wonderful things when you never have to trouble yourself with the practicalities of their implementation.
Tealightsandd · 15/02/2022 20:45

When I thought I had it (didn't have NHS listed symptoms hence no test) I self isolated at home - which is always ventilated. That was something in place well before the pandemic. Can't stand stuffy airless buildings.

I wear a mask when I'm out in shops or on the train, yes. Just the same as I use a seat belt when in a car.

2X4B523P · 15/02/2022 21:30

@Tealightsandd

Virus gonna virus

Yes. Kill and disable - and spread (and mutate) when humans give it opportunity to.

Hence, the sensible approach being mitigations to limit the damage.

Masks gonna mask, and ventilation's gonna ventilate.

Likewise, car crash is gonna car crash.

Seat belt's gonna seat belt, and speeding limit's gonna limit speeding.

You’ll be pleased to learn then in the bit less than three weeks since mask mandate was removed that the seven day average for cases are down by about 43% and deaths down by a third.

Still eight days to go till I suggested to you around the time the mandate was removed that we could compare numbers. I wouldn’t be surprised if cases down by two thirds and deaths by at least half.

Swipe left for the next trending thread