Can someone explain to me New Zealand?

[idontknow54789]

Sorry for the ignorance/naivety here but can someone explain to me the reasonings behind such extreme lockdown measures in NZ? At the beginning of the pandemic they're approach was fully accepted but surely now with vaccines and omnicrom being a 'milder' form of covid they have to start setting sense? Is it about the health system? I understand there's a severe lack of ICU beds but is locking down so much really better for health? Can anyone explain it to me please?

The Charlotte Bellis circus did not force the government's hand. This was well planned and expected.

Why let the truth get in the way of a good story! Of course, what would anyone actually living in NZ know about it - those in the UK seem to know far more.

@PinkTonic

Don't get me wrong, she's done a great job in getting NZ to this point - few Covid deaths and an largely open society over the past two years is an amazing achievement. It has understandably bred a kind of NZ exceptionalism

NZ is in a unique situation. I wouldn’t call it an amazing achievement. They were lucky in the very beginning and then they used their position to advantage, slammed shut and didn’t let the small matter of human rights get in the way of staying shut and mandating quarantine for community cases for as long as they had the capacity to do it. Yes they have had freedom to live “normally” within the borders but there are numerous examples on this thread of how far from normal that has been for many citizens. New Zealand has had the strictest and most draconian restrictions outside of China. That is nothing to crow about.

Yes exactly, that "small matter of human rights" through which Jacinta and her govt have driven a coach and horses

You may not like it but that's how most of the world see NZ these days @SquirrelG

I guess it's natural that when you live in a country your natural instinct is to defend its policies, that's fine, but don't expect the rest of the world to do so.

Seems to me we’re hearing from New Zealanders with opposing opinions, and that’s ok. I have Kiwi family who love Jacinda and are totally happy with NZ right now, and Kiwi friends who think she’s dreadful and are pissed off with her and the whole situation.

Covid - and politics - are divisive subjects, but there is no need to sling mud at each other.

@Lilifer

I guess it's natural that when you live in a country your natural instinct is to defend its policies, that's fine, but don't expect the rest of the world to do so.

I'm in the UK. I will never blindly defend the indefensible. Whatever the policy is about (Covid or something else).

I also see no issue in acknowledging when another country has better policies.

But you're right that seemingly many are like you say. I'm not sure if it's nationalism, exceptionalism, or something else.

As for the simple mitigations. To mitigate = reduce the harm. It doesn't mean keep it completely out.

It's no different than seat belts and speeding limits. They don't stop many RTA deaths and disablities, but they do prevent many others.

Regardless of SARS-COV-2, masks (particularly when sick), vaccines, and good ventilation are just generally sensible basic infection control measures.

Yes exactly, that "small matter of human rights" through which Jacinta and her govt have driven a coach and horses

Human rights? Allowing enormous numbers of people to be killed or become disabled (many avoidably) is the opposite of human rights.

In the UK six out of ten SARS-COV-2 deaths have been disabled people.

Minority ethnic groups have also been disproportionately affected - and we know, from studies, that they are at higher risk.

And the elderly are human beings with human rights. Even (gasp) those in aged care.

Countries like the UK have shown little to no regard for human rights.

The refusal to implement or keep very simple and easy non restricting, economy supporting mitigations such as masks and good ventilation, is the very opposite of human rights.

The first human right is...The Right to life.

That well-known underlying condition - women. They too have human rights.

Reports over recent months have noted the common risk factors for Long Covid. On the list of various underlying conditions they include being the, to quote one report, 'female sex'.

Article 1 is sort of like the admin of setting the Act in place. Then the first actual Right...

Article 2 of the Human Rights Act protects your right to life.

This means that nobody, including the Government, can try to end your life. It also means the Government should take appropriate measures to safeguard life by making laws to protect you and, in some circumstances, by taking steps to protect you if your life is at risk.

Public authorities should also consider your right to life when making decisions that might put you in danger or that affect your life expectancy.

Masks and good ventilation are very small easy measures that do not close society or economy down (quite the opposite) - yet will make all the difference for many lives and health. Yes they won't protect everybody - but they will save many. Just like seat belts and speeding limits. Entirely reasonable to expect these basic infection control measures particularly during a pandemic.

Yeah maybe the NZ Govt should’ve started the vaccine programme properly in March 2021 instead of faffing around til we got hit with Delta and had to lock down our largest city for 4 months.

You may not like it but that's how most of the world see NZ these days @SquirrelG**

I have a number of friends in different parts of the world - that is not how any of them see NZ. Who are you to speak for "most of the world"?

There is a third way to either completely running NZ down as mad, or saying it has all been roses though--to acknowledge that more could have been done to limit some of the really terrible human rights outcomes (like people being stuck with nowhere to go, or not being able to make it to loved ones in time) while at the same time limiting spread in NZ. I didn't vote labour in the last election despite being a long term labour voter because of the cruelty and populism of bringing in charges for MIQ (also didn't vote national, because their policies were even more populist and cruel). It's not either or.

@CallItLoneliness

There is a third way to either completely running NZ down as mad, or saying it has all been roses though--to acknowledge that more could have been done to limit some of the really terrible human rights outcomes (like people being stuck with nowhere to go, or not being able to make it to loved ones in time) while at the same time limiting spread in NZ. I didn't vote labour in the last election despite being a long term labour voter because of the cruelty and populism of bringing in charges for MIQ (also didn't vote national, because their policies were even more populist and cruel). It's not either or.

Exactly. I feel the same. Not sure who I will be voting for in the next election but it certainly won't be National. Chris Luxon terrifies me. Maybe Greens but I've not been thrilled with them recently either.

@Lilifer

You may not like it but that's how most of the world see NZ these days .@SquirrelG

What hyperbole! I don't live in NZ, but am a close neighbour, and I don't think that. I don't know anyone who does.

@Turangawaewae

I feel anything but imprisoned or that Jacinda is a tyrant. My life is pretty normal considering. Most kiwis are just heading back to work after a glorious summer and my colleagues are pretty chipper. Check out #nzhellhole on twitter for photos if you want to see how things are going.

Zero covid forever was never the aim. 2 years down the track we are going into omicron 90 percent plus vaxxed, with new treatments, a healthy economy and what we believe is a milder variant. And negative excess deaths.

That's what success looks like to me.

^ This

Life has been more or less normal. Yes, some school disruption. Yes, we need to wear masks, distance, and scan in. Not a huge amount to ask. If you choose not to get vaccinated, you also choose restrictions to keep yourself and others safe. There are mandates for healthcare workers - I thoroughly approve.

People have been making the most of the lack of international tourists to visit places they'd normally avoid like the plague (no pun intended). Travel within NZ has been great without the crowds .

My family is overseas. We haven't seen them for over 2 years, rather than multiple times a year. DParents are a bit crumbly - but they are in Western Australia which has had a similar policy to NZ (closed borders) so no significant COVID there either (yet!). It's shit not to be able to see them.

Despite this, I'm another one who thinks Jacinda & her govt have done a great job.

Zero covid forever was never the aim. 2 years down the track we are going into omicron 90 percent plus vaxxed, with new treatments, a healthy economy and what we believe is a milder variant. And negative excess deaths.

Your full vaccination rate (i.e. two full vaccinations based on your definition) is around 70% and for anyone not boosted, immunity will have waned significantly. Your booster rate is below 30%.

@Tealightsandd the Human Rights Act I think you are referring to is a UK based Act. So doesnt have any relevance here for New Zealand

I also see no issue in acknowledging when another country has better policies.

That is a good point - but at the same time surely we can acknowledge that however good New Zealand policies that doesn't mean it didn't have it issues or consequences

Am I right in saying Auckland has had tougher restrictions at times compared to other parts of NZ?

A friend of mine emigrated to Auckland in March 2020 from the uk. He’s really struggled mentally, not being able to visit family and not having the option to freely travel like we pretty much have had in Europe.

I do believe at some point an enquiry will be made on how countries reacted to this virus.
The damage caused to peoples health and the economy by lockdowns or tough restrictions.
I do strongly believe there’s been a complete over reaction to this virus

@SquirrelG

You may not like it but that's how most of the world see NZ these days @SquirrelG**

I have a number of friends in different parts of the world - that is not how any of them see NZ. Who are you to speak for "most of the world"?

😂 Ok fair point I can't speak for the entire planet but every single person in my social circle/family then whenever NZ comes up thinks that Jacinda has lost the plot and are thankful that we do not live there.

"
Human rights? Allowing enormous numbers of people to be killed or become disabled (many avoidably) is the opposite of human rights."

Ok ban driving then. It is directly responsible for millions of deaths and catastrophic disabilities all over the world every year.

@Lilifer that is such an amazingly stupid (non) comparison. Is that really the best counter-argument you've got?

[quote Porcupineintherough]@Lilifer that is such an amazingly stupid (non) comparison. Is that really the best counter-argument you've got?[/quote]
And is that the best rebuttal you can actually make to my point? 🤔

But Human Rights has always been a balance - so yes you have the Right to Life, but you also have the Right to liberty and security, Right to respect for private and family life and the Right to education and it is about balancing these out.

@Tealightsandd

Unfortunately basic infection measures would not be covered by this as much as you think it should. There is no immediate risk or specific risk for one person and the measures would be to protect an individual if overrided. What you are looking at (although I dont have a problem per se with the basic infection measures) is overruling others rights to protect someone else because the right to wear a mask is still a personal choice.

Plus you believe China have a common sense approach and they have run roughshod over so many Human Rights.

I think the other key word is Allowing and the idea of avoiding now. Yes in the past but not with omicron

Human rights? Allowing enormous numbers of people to be killed or become disabled (many avoidably) is the opposite of human rights

So you would advocate for extreme restrictions on people’s freedom, incarceration even, for their own good? People who have capacity. Because that’s what has happened in NZ.

Reports over recent months have noted the common risk factors for Long Covid. On the list of various underlying conditions they include being the, to quote one report, 'female sex'.

Look, if we are talking about hospitalizations, deaths and critical pressure on hospitals then quite obviously NZ's policy has worked very well. They will have to deal with omicron working its way through fairly soon, but since their border closures bought time to develop and roll out the vaccines and develop some good therapeutic drugs, the death toll and hosp pressure will be much lower than most other countries. So all good.

However, I really don't understand the idea of long COVID as a reason for NZ's policy being better, in the same way--at least, if you are the kind of person who believes that even mild cases of COVID in well-vaccinated people are still likely to cause COVID.

Everyone. In. New. Zealand. Is. Going. To. Get. COVID. At. Some. Point. Anyway.

And if, as some posters seem to think, even mild cases in triple jabbed people are liable to cause long-term symptoms. NZers would logically be as screwed as everyone else is.

Please, no more bloody posts about how, "If everyone pops a nice mask on and we put a magical HEPA machine in every room, the virus will be slowed down/mitigated/whatever". The differences do not look impressive, frankly.

And even if you can "slow down" the transmission of a virus that is as infectious as measles, that will still pretty much add up to "Everyone is still going to get infected multiple times throughout their lifetime."