Can someone explain to me New Zealand?

[idontknow54789]

Sorry for the ignorance/naivety here but can someone explain to me the reasonings behind such extreme lockdown measures in NZ? At the beginning of the pandemic they're approach was fully accepted but surely now with vaccines and omnicrom being a 'milder' form of covid they have to start setting sense? Is it about the health system? I understand there's a severe lack of ICU beds but is locking down so much really better for health? Can anyone explain it to me please?

Don't see any threads complaining about Bolsonaro's handling of the pandemic

I don't see threads saying how great it was either. That is the point.

@C8H10N4O2

Don't see any threads complaining about Bolsonaro's handling of the pandemic

I don't see threads saying how great it was either. That is the point.

I’ve seen threads about Brazil on this forum

I’ve seen threads about Brazil on this forum

Frequent threads and posters lauding Bolisnara's handling of the pandemic?

@C8H10N4O2

I’ve seen threads about Brazil on this forum

Frequent threads and posters lauding Bolisnara's handling of the pandemic?

Sorry no! The opposite. Expressing concern and saying how awful the situation there is

@alexandra2001 the same as any other deaths of people I don't know. I don't think people should be prevented from seeing their families or returning to their homes - we could prevent deaths from lots of causes by stopping living - ban booze, driving, bikes, mountain climbing. This hysterical "but what about the deaths" is mad. We were supposedly protecting the health services - not individuals from dying. Utter madness all of this. What about all the deaths from electrocution!!? Ban electricity!! It's the same nonsense. People have lost all perspective.

[quote Snowcov]@alexandra2001 the same as any other deaths of people I don't know. I don't think people should be prevented from seeing their families or returning to their homes - we could prevent deaths from lots of causes by stopping living - ban booze, driving, bikes, mountain climbing. This hysterical "but what about the deaths" is mad. We were supposedly protecting the health services - not individuals from dying. Utter madness all of this. What about all the deaths from electrocution!!? Ban electricity!! It's the same nonsense. People have lost all perspective.[/quote]
Completely agree, people seem to think that it's possible to eliminate deaths. It isn't and never was, all that can be done is to reduce the risk via vaccinations and treatments.

I think New Zealand have backed themselves into a corner and aren't willing to concede that it isn't possible to deliver on their initial policy of zero covid for ever more.
Unless, all their residents support this in which case, let them crack on with endless restrictions.

It’s difficult to make any fair comparisons between a country like the UK and NZ

It's basically impossible and irrelevant to compare most countries. Different cultures, attitudes, socioeconomic factors, population densities, geographical factors, timelines, levels entry/exit to and from the country, data recording methodologies, etc. etc. etc.

The thing is, most people are highly ignorant of the realities of life in any country other than their own, so they see one story about Ardern implementing a certain measure or Bolsonaro saying something dumb and think it's an accurate reflection of an entire situation in a country, when usually it's far from it.

I forgot to mention demographic differences.

My question has still not been answered about celebrities/sports stars seemingly being able to enter the country when normal folk with VERY compelling reasons cant? Were they just exceedingly lucky in the squid game lottery?

What about all the deaths from electrocution!!? Ban electricity!!

Goodness. You’d think electricity conferred no benefits on humankind, or that the virus did. Which is it?

[quote Snowcov]@alexandra2001 the same as any other deaths of people I don't know. I don't think people should be prevented from seeing their families or returning to their homes - we could prevent deaths from lots of causes by stopping living - ban booze, driving, bikes, mountain climbing. This hysterical "but what about the deaths" is mad. We were supposedly protecting the health services - not individuals from dying. Utter madness all of this. What about all the deaths from electrocution!!? Ban electricity!! It's the same nonsense. People have lost all perspective.[/quote]
@Snowcov
I take it you are more than happy to sacrifice a loved family member or perhaps even yourself in order that we avoid Lockdowns & all that go with it or is it just random strangers you will allow to die so you can carry on as you like?

@emotinium One thing most experts agree on is, generally speaking, countries with populist right wing Governments have done measurable worse than more centralist ones, be it on deaths, infections & overwhelmed health services, of which the NHS most certainly has become.

They can’t keep up the ridiculous 24 day isolation thing once Omicron gets going. And it will. How unhealthy keeping people indoors for three weeks. I guess children are included in that? And you say that is not restrictive and life is normal there? Right.

Thanks to timing and the unique position of NZ a zero Covid strategy may have been the right strategy two years ago. But what’s the exit strategy now? With no natural immunity?

Agree with the posters saying open up now and let it spread more in summer.

Covid is going nowhere. Those gleefully claiming in NZ they know nobody with Covid? Come back in 3 months...Omicron doesn’t respond well to lockdowns- and you’re not locked down. So it will spread like wildfire unfortunately. But fortunately it’s on the whole mild. Time to get on with it now.

The thing is, most people are highly ignorant of the realities of life in any country other than their own, so they see one story about Ardern implementing a certain measure or Bolsonaro saying something dumb and think it's an accurate reflection of an entire situation in a country, when usually it's far from it.

This is so true. I believe many in the UK see places like NZ/Australia as just versions of the UK on the other side of the world, when the reality is very different.

What about all the deaths from electrocution!!? Ban electricity!! It's the same nonsense. People have lost all perspective.

WTAF - how many deaths are caused by electrocution? Similar to covid? I doubt that very much

@ferfaffle

The continued border closures are utterly inhumane. That NZ citizens have had to enter a lottery to secure a room to return home - and that even this option is currently closed - is just unbelievable. I think I peaked in terms of anger when I saw that an 11yr old girl visiting her new step brother in Australia got caught out when the travel bubble closed the day she landed and she was unable to return home to her mother, who had been diagnosed with cancer. Shortly afterwards, it was in the press that a DJ had been able to enter the country multiple times in the last year, as he was considered an essential worker. The PM's 'Be Kind' rhetoric is utterly hollow.

I don't understand how this isn't effectively making people stateless? What does it mean to be a citizen if you can be prevented from setting foot on the soil of your country just because your government says so?

The thing is, most people are highly ignorant of the realities of life in any country other than their own, so they see one story about Ardern implementing a certain measure or Bolsonaro saying something dumb and think it's an accurate reflection of an entire situation in a country, when usually it's far from it.

This is so true. I believe many in the UK see places like NZ/Australia as just versions of the UK on the other side of the world, when the reality is very different.

Yep this goes both ways, eg borders and timings etc, which is why inability to see differences which impact outcomes is frustrating.

@Cactusandmarshmallows

I think it's an odd thread because it's full of people describing a situation in NZ that doesn't actually exist.

Today I went to 3 cafes, saw numerous friends, and worked in the office. It doesn't feel like lockdown at all. I've also got spaces in MIQ twice now - people talked about being "locked out" for two years, but I don't actually know anyone who's tried consistently and not yet found a spot. There were plenty of spaces going spare in the December rollout, and when I came back early in 2021 I had my pick of places.

I also don't know a single person in NZ who has had covid.

I'm happy with how things are here, and so are most of the people I talk to. The government is still leading in polling by some margin. Over the past while I'm seeing a real rise in anger from those opposed to the government, but the actually number of those opposed doesn't seem to have grown - it's louder not larger

I've also got spaces in MIQ twice now - people talked about being "locked out" for two years

You should probably play the lottery. On the other hand it might be an idea to stay indoors during thunderstorms.

There are people in NZ that are ok in their little bubble. That's great for them but if they had a son, daughter or parents that they couldn't see for 2 years they might feel a bit differently as to how things are now being handled.

I have worked with a large number of people who have children/parents on the other side of the world. The majority of them go for more than two years without seeing them - this idea that people criss cross the world every year or two is not the reality for most.

I have impression NZ govt has negotiated long stay visas for its citizens trapped abroad. there aren't huge numbers given it's a small population country.

if they had a son, daughter or parents that they couldn't see for 2 years they might feel a bit differently

I think this is, at the end of the day, why different people living in the same country have different opinions on what's going on.

I have a colleague from NZ who was 22yo when the pandemic started. He's a 26 hour flight from home. My family is a 1.5 and 3 hour flight away respectively. Both our mental health have suffered enormously these past 2 years. I was of a similar age to him and in similar circumstances. International move dictated by our careers, cold Northern European city with a very closed culture and not much to do socially. Not speaking the local language. Not knowing many people here. It was tough, the winters especially have been horrible.

The difference is, I can hop on a plane and see my mum whenever I want. I was used to go home every 6 months and this is what I've kept doing.

My NZ colleague hasn't seen his family in almost 3 years. He's a young man, on the other side of the world, away from all his loved ones, has gone through multiple mental health crisis, and he is not allowed to enter his own country to see his parents. To hug his mum.

All those of you saying 'bravo' to NZ wouldn't be so eager to live there, if you had a young son or daughter who wouldn't have been allowed to visit for 3 years. People don't move 26h away thinking that they might be apart from their families for half a decade. Or they didn't. There have been so many people, all of ages and backgrounds, who haven't been able to return home, and some were in even more dire circumstances than my colleague's.

I applaud NZ's handling of the virus. I do not applaud their handling of border control. It's literally banned people from hugging their loved ones. That's not something that should be taken lightly.

Yes for those with family abroad it must have been (and still is) awful.

There’s a sense of ‘I’m all right Jack’ from those happy to just stay in their own country and never travel.

Imagine not being able to see dying parents.

@Cactusandmarshmallows

I think it's an odd thread because it's full of people describing a situation in NZ that doesn't actually exist.

Today I went to 3 cafes, saw numerous friends, and worked in the office. It doesn't feel like lockdown at all. I've also got spaces in MIQ twice now - people talked about being "locked out" for two years, but I don't actually know anyone who's tried consistently and not yet found a spot. There were plenty of spaces going spare in the December rollout, and when I came back early in 2021 I had my pick of places.

I also don't know a single person in NZ who has had covid.

I'm happy with how things are here, and so are most of the people I talk to. The government is still leading in polling by some margin. Over the past while I'm seeing a real rise in anger from those opposed to the government, but the actually number of those opposed doesn't seem to have grown - it's louder not larger

The thing is, this is also what I've heard about people living in China. Overall many people are happy and support the government. Right up until they actually are affected by or see what goes in to maintaining things as they have been.

Now arguably the things they are doing in NZ don't compare to China, but that doesn't mean they are actually ok. Some things aren't ok even
when it may be good for a lot of other people, that's a big part of the reason we have human rights legislation at all.

It's very "the needs of the many outweigh the needs - and rights - of the few." Right to things like travel, access to the country of which you are a citizen, to make medical decisions, and also having these rights in a meaningful way - these are basic and in some cases foundational individual rights in a democracy.

I have some doubts about whether keeping deaths sown until now will mean they maintain that as they try and open up. Especially if they are slow - their vaccination protection is going to begin to wane.

We haven't had lockdowns inside NZ except for early in the pandemic. Life is so ordinary here that NZers don't really have any of the masking and distancing habits they're going to need now that the government has decided it's a good idea to let omicron loose.

The way the border closure has been handled is a complete disgrace. DJs and rugby players (most? all? of whom aren't even New Zealanders) get special permits because something-something-mumble-reasons-money!! while families and partners are separated.

Part of the reason MIQ is such a pig's breakfast is that the Ministry of Health can't seem to understand the concept of "booking." They have no way to simply book a slot. They started with a free-for-all. That got bad press. (Duh.) So they went to a system of free-for-alls-but-with-more-limited-subsets. And decided that calling it a "waiting room" or some such crap would make it all better. Instead of being a walking, talking human rights violation.

The way the border closure has been handled is a complete disgrace. DJs and rugby players (most? all? of whom aren't even New Zealanders) get special permits because something-something-mumble-reasons-money!! while families and partners are separated.

This kind of thing, though in less extreme form, has been seen in a lot of different countries. When they are faced with deciding where to put restrictions, governments are faced with balancing their desire to limit spread with not wanting businesses to fail or employees to be out of work.

So we get these crazy situations where churches are closed while you can go to a paid concert, or you can't have your extended family all to Christmas dinner but you can go down to the pub and meet a stranger.

There is a kind of logic but people see the contradiction and generally they aren't willing to accept it. They might acquiesce, but they see it as morally corrupt.