Can someone explain to me New Zealand?

[idontknow54789]

Sorry for the ignorance/naivety here but can someone explain to me the reasonings behind such extreme lockdown measures in NZ? At the beginning of the pandemic they're approach was fully accepted but surely now with vaccines and omnicrom being a 'milder' form of covid they have to start setting sense? Is it about the health system? I understand there's a severe lack of ICU beds but is locking down so much really better for health? Can anyone explain it to me please?

@quixote9

We haven't had lockdowns inside NZ except for early in the pandemic. Life is so ordinary here that NZers don't really have any of the masking and distancing habits they're going to need now that the government has decided it's a good idea to let omicron loose.

The way the border closure has been handled is a complete disgrace. DJs and rugby players (most? all? of whom aren't even New Zealanders) get special permits because something-something-mumble-reasons-money!! while families and partners are separated.

Part of the reason MIQ is such a pig's breakfast is that the Ministry of Health can't seem to understand the concept of "booking." They have no way to simply book a slot. They started with a free-for-all. That got bad press. (Duh.) So they went to a system of free-for-alls-but-with-more-limited-subsets. And decided that calling it a "waiting room" or some such crap would make it all better. Instead of being a walking, talking human rights violation.

Whereabouts in New Zealand are you? I'm pretty sure my Auckland cousins and their family have been fairly heavily restricted in the last six months. Haven't there been a number of Covid breakouts? My cousin's wife signed up as a community volunteer at the start and has been called in to help staff one of the local supermarkets because of a shortage of people available for work and the need to keep shelves filled.

@SantaClawsServiette thank you for your eloquent explanation. I'm 'locked out' and find that those that are in the country are not grasping the situation for the 1mill on the outside. It's the equivalent of a shipping sinking, most get into a life raft but some people who should be in a life raft too are being pushed off into the ocean.

*ship

@SquirrelG actually it's exactly because of the point you make that it has now been 4 years since I've seen my elderly parents. 2 year gap and then an unexpected pandemic....so that's 4 years without seeing my family. It's the not being able to that is distressing now.

In the UK a lot of people will never see their elderly family again. Or even talk to them on the phone or via video call.

Because they're dead.

173,000 killed by Covid in the UK - with more (300-400) dead everyday.

And there's also now a significant minority - over 1 million - of newly disabled people in the UK. Felled by Long Covid.

I have close family in Australia but their in-laws are in NZ. Various places - including Auckland. They are all very supportive of their government's sensible (and moral) life, health, and economy saving measures. They are also hugely grateful to be in NZ rather than elsewhere. This is the majority consensus in NZ. A massive majority.

And yes economy saving. Long Covid won't only impact on the unfortunate individuals disabled with it. There will also be long term economic ramifications.

@Pluvia
Absolutely NZ is an irrelevance to many. I really don't need it breaking to me! So, why then are so many intent on judging what is happening here, often based on half a story? And in fairness, this is a thread about NZ and so I think it's probably OK for me to bring irrelevant NZ into the conversation.

And there's also now asignificantminority - over 1 million - of newly disabled people in the UK. Felled by Long Covid.

This stat doesn't get any less daft with repetition. Why the ONS use such a wide definition is mystifying. As if someone still having a cough 29 days after a positive test amounts to disability.

But what’s the exit strategy?!

They are going to have to let omicron spread. It’s not over for them yet. They will have to open up.

@quixote9 I cannot tell you how incensed your post had made me. Auckland has been locked down 7 or 8 times for many, many, many many months. My children have received 1/2 an hour zoom lessons once a day for months. No sports, no extra circular activities, no friends to play with, no playgrounds for most of it.
All sacrificed to keep it out if the rest of NZ and now you can’t even acknowledge it?
People in the rest of NZ have no idea how angry the people of Auckland are over the lockdowns.

@Tealightsandd

In the UK a lot of people will never see their elderly family again. Or even talk to them on the phone or via video call.

Because they're dead.

173,000 killed by Covid in the UK - with more (300-400) dead everyday.

And there's also now a significant minority - over 1 million - of newly disabled people in the UK. Felled by Long Covid.

I have close family in Australia but their in-laws are in NZ. Various places - including Auckland. They are all very supportive of their government's sensible (and moral) life, health, and economy saving measures. They are also hugely grateful to be in NZ rather than elsewhere. This is the majority consensus in NZ. A massive majority.

And yes economy saving. Long Covid won't only impact on the unfortunate individuals disabled with it. There will also be long term economic ramifications.

But the situation has now changed, significantly. We have vaccines, anti virals, oh and the virus itself is weaker.

@Snowcov
I did say 'most of the country' and very much recognise that things have been different for Auckland and Northland. However, what I said is certainly true for the South Isalnd, where I live.

@sashagabadon I completely agree with your post.

@Delatron

But what’s the exit strategy?!

They are going to have to let omicron spread. It’s not over for them yet. They will have to open up.

Yeah, this is the real question, and the choices seem odd. The long containment time seems to make little sense. Keeping borders closed seems useless. Other countries that have tried to restrict the unvaccinated have found it makes no real difference and just makes people angry. It's not at all clear that it is better to vaccinate low risk kids rather than let them be exposed so waiting for that seems an odd choice.

And the slower it happens the more there will be ill effects from the measures themselves.

Auckland is the most populous part of NZ. It’s the biggest city, the most people, the driver of the economy. You can’t pretend NZ had been unaffected when the biggest city has been in lockdown for months and months of last year.

Exactly @SantaClawsServiette and nobody has an answer.

It’s pointless going on about how well NZ have done. What will happen when omicron starts to spread and they have zero immunity in the population?

What are they waiting for? How long will they keep the current restrictions?

I thought it was to let omicron pass through population but slowly enough to not overwhelm ICU

Not sure how long re borders though

@Tealightsandd the course of the pandemic has changed. So why is NZ still closed if most people are vaccinated and omicron is less of a killer - the answer is the healthcare system. So now the borders are not close to save lives, the borders are closed because the country has not developed a proper exit plan or approach to increased need for hospitals admissions (without death).

@quixote9

We haven't had lockdowns inside NZ except for early in the pandemic. Life is so ordinary here that NZers don't really have any of the masking and distancing habits they're going to need now that the government has decided it's a good idea to let omicron loose.

The way the border closure has been handled is a complete disgrace. DJs and rugby players (most? all? of whom aren't even New Zealanders) get special permits because something-something-mumble-reasons-money!! while families and partners are separated.

Part of the reason MIQ is such a pig's breakfast is that the Ministry of Health can't seem to understand the concept of "booking." They have no way to simply book a slot. They started with a free-for-all. That got bad press. (Duh.) So they went to a system of free-for-alls-but-with-more-limited-subsets. And decided that calling it a "waiting room" or some such crap would make it all better. Instead of being a walking, talking human rights violation.

We haven't had lockdowns inside NZ except for early in the pandemic. Life is so ordinary here that NZers don't really have any of the masking and distancing habits they're going to need now that the government has decided it's a good idea to let omicron loose

That simply isn’t true! Where do you live? Even if you’re in the South Island and have got away relatively easily during the past few months, how could you possibly not know what’s going on in the rest of your country?

@VikingOnTheFridge

And there's also now asignificantminority - over 1 million - of newly disabled people in the UK. Felled by Long Covid.

This stat doesn't get any less daft with repetition. Why the ONS use such a wide definition is mystifying. As if someone still having a cough 29 days after a positive test amounts to disability.

I'm not relying on the ONS. I'm referring to findings (globally) of experts including immunologists and cardiologists. There's a lot of information easily available. They're currently looking at, amongst other things, microclots.

They are letting it spread now. The rhetoric mightn’t have changed much but it is now clearly ‘let it rip’ gussied up with a few platitudes.

There was a large music festival that many senior school students attended that has had confirmed omicron cases. Senior schools started back this week and next. Schools have received no directives from the government. They have, on their own bat, sent all the students home who were at the festival and asked them to get tested. But it’s hard to see how when school started back proper next week it just won’t rapidly spread throughout the schools and be taken home.

Mumsnet by it very nature has lots of NZ members who are expats/immigrants from the UK. The reality is that many of us in NZ have close family overseas and we don't see them every year simply due to cost. Before the pandemic, flights for 4 to the UK mean a trip costs around 5,000 GBP. Add in accomodation and internal travel and its generally more like 10k. Even as highly skilled migrants that was way more than our budget could manage every year.

The average household income is about 55k per year. For many NZers household incomes are much lower and overseas travel is just not feasible.

I have elderly family in the UK, one of whom has been quite ill. But I accept that the cost of my 'freedom' to travel would be borne by the poorest in our society. Both economically through the loss of minimum wage jobs and also through a disproportionate number of deaths in some socio economic groups.

For example, some Pasifika families live in multi generation large household of 10+ where covid is much harder to control. Evidence from the US also suggests Pasifika and Maori people have higher death rates. NZ is not the UK - our ethnic and cultural mix is different and mumsnet is giving a very NZ European biased viewpoint.

I also know many people who have been through MIQ, some multiple times. I don't believe there are thousands of NZ citizens out there who have been waiting 2 years to come home. It is difficult to come for short trip to visit family. I feel for people separated from their loved ones and wish MIQ was better.

I'm not relying on the ONS. I'm referring to findings (globally) of experts including immunologists and cardiologists. There's a lot of information easily available. They're currently looking at, amongst other things, microclots.

I wasn't aware of any global expert immunologists and cardiologists whose research had found that there were over 1 million people in the UK newly disabled by long covid. That would actually be several times more than the number of people ONS say are currently reporting significant limitations, so it's surprising.

Can you tell us who they are? I wonder what data they use? It's just this specific point I'm interested in so no need to bother with sources for anything else.

I don't think that JA can be accused of human rights abuses for two reasons.

JA doesn't make these decisions alone. She is part of a government and whatever the opposition claim, it is very probable that their decisions would have been very similar. Decisions are made as a cabinet and with the advice of the Ministry of Health. It is not a one woman show and suggesting it is, is just an excuse for appalling offensive misogyny.

Someone has suggested that JA is undermining women's rights in NZ. Really? I give you the Paid Leave for Stillbirths and Miscarriages bill in 2021, the fact that NZ is fifth in the world for female representation in parliament and the 2018 Equal Pay Amendment bill. The paid leave for victims of domestic violence bill was championed by a Green Party MP, but supported by JA. Yep, it is needed because of shocking rates of domestic violence in NZ over many years, but we can hardly pin that on JA.

And I'm not sure that travelling across the world, even to see family members is a 'human right'. I was not able to be with either of my parents when they died. For my Dad it was about money and the fact I was in a controlling relationship at that time and he refused to allow me to spend the money to fly to the UK. With my Mum it was about time. I just didn't make it in time. As someone has rightly said, Criss crossing back and forward to see family regularly is not common outside of monied circles. And not seeing family for a long long time is something that you factor into your decision making. When I first moved to NZ, I didn't see my parents for 6 years because none of us could afford the fares. But it's not a human rights issue and was a situation brought about by my own choices.

Exit plan?

Mitigations. Masks, vaccines, good ventilation. Just as how we live with cars by using mitigations such as seat belts, child seats, and speeding limit.

And prudent patience.

In the future there will be more knowledge about this still new and evolving disease that kills and disables many.

We will also hopefully have more of the rest of the world vaccinated. It's the morally right thing to do, but also very important as a way to reduce the risk of more dangerous mutations developing.

Further on down the line there should also be wider availability of the new drug treatments that are currently in global short supply.

Also, there is work going on into multi variant vaccines. If this could work, it will be a major step forwards.

@Tealightsandd

Exit plan?

Mitigations. Masks, vaccines, good ventilation. Just as how we live with cars by using mitigations such as seat belts, child seats, and speeding limit.

And prudent patience.

In the future there will be more knowledge about this still new and evolving disease that kills and disables many.

We will also hopefully have more of the rest of the world vaccinated. It's the morally right thing to do, but also very important as a way to reduce the risk of more dangerous mutations developing.

Further on down the line there should also be wider availability of the new drug treatments that are currently in global short supply.

Also, there is work going on into multi variant vaccines. If this could work, it will be a major step forwards.

Omicron is spreading now so whilst these sound good it won’t be before most get it.