Do you still agree with mandatory vaccines for NHS?

[woollymammoths]

Not doing this to goad and completely respectful of people’s choices. But genuinely interested in opinions and any research that people are aware of.

At this point in time I am struggling to think of family and friends that do not have covid right now. Some are triple vaccinated, some are unvaccinated. There does not seem to be any distinct differences between how easily it was transmitted or how ill the individuals are - according to their vaccination status.

Example:
My DP is triple jabbed - he has had covid twice (once after 2 jabs, the second time after booster). More ill the second time, but still mild.

His (NHS) department is currently shut down with the amount of (triple jabbed) staff off sick with covid.

I caught covid from him.

I am unvaccinated - have had covid twice. Been unpleasant but not hospitalised. The second time milder than the first.

I am on mat leave but due to return to my NHS role.

Why am I still being forced to be vaccinated?

please do not say ‘just find another job’. That is not the point of my thread

And what pushed quite a few to vaccinate earlier this year was not being able to travel and go on holiday

All the I’m so worried what I’m putting into my body went out of the window

How utterly selfish is that

@periwinklepetals oh and don't mention common sense and hospitals to me. I have four experiences of a severe lack of it ,one I have mentioned before about the hospital refusing to test an elderly person so they could be released to a care home. Another elderly person in the same hospital clear to go, caught Covid in the hospital and died while the hospital argued about test. Fecking idiots. The really sad thing is the elderly spouses/relatives were scared to say anything in case they ended up in the same hospital and their complaining would affect the level it the treatment they received

@howdiditcometothis666 I was just showing you that the care home recruitment issue isn’t UK wide, that’s all.

I apologise that it didn’t slot into your sensationalist narrative, have a lovely day

I think these laws are frighteningly illiberal.

More or less illiberal than the continued strict restrictions we would be experiencing if everyone decided they didn’t want to be vaccinated?

Pragmatically, mandatory vaccinations may not be the best solution if they result in too many staff shortages, but I have little sympathy for the idea that this is about respecting individual freedom of choice.

[quote periwinklepetals]@howdiditcometothis666 just because care homes in your area are doing Royal Mail leaflets doesn’t mean it’s wide spread. I live in a City and I know for a fact our care homes are staffed well.

Why do so many posters come on Mumsnet assuming just because something is happening locally to them that it’s UK wide. It’s really funny and shows a lack of common sense & a degree of self absorbency.

Which are the same personality traits we dont want to see in hospitals! [/quote]
Why indeed do they come on MN and insist that their experience is the only one that's valid?

It's reported that there were 10000 social care vacancies before the mandate, the mandate added another 57,000.

A Google of the subject will bring you articles from places like Skills for Care and Nursing Times, and that care workers have been added to the shortage occupation list by the government, as well as MSM articles.

Not really funny if you're one of the ones left trying to keep the ship afloat, or one of the ones getting poor or no care because there's not enough people to deliver it.

Quite staggeringly ignorant because you know for a fact that care homes are fully staffed in your city, to assume that's the case across the industry, despite the reports to the contrary and the government adding the job to the shortage occupation list - do you think they did that on a whim or something?

@GreenWhiteViolet

The whole bus cheered?

I think these laws are frighteningly illiberal. I think the most that can be justified is a policy saying that new NHS employees must be vaccinated. That way, you know in advance and can make a decision. Nobody should lose their job because they don't want a vaccine. Nobody should be coerced into having one.

100% agree with this.

The whole bus cheered? hmm

I think these laws are frighteningly illiberal.

Me too - I also find the coerced suppression of opposition through job losses concerning and the authoritarianism of the cheerleaders a bit suspect.

As far as I can work out, the NHS is struggling due to staff being off with Covid and not due to the numbers of actual Covid patients. That's not a vaccination problem. While vaccination does reduce the chance of infection to earlier waves, the data on Omicron (which has displaced previous versions) is not so clear-cut.

In 2 years time my prediction is that no-one will need vaccines or boosters unless CEV or elderly and we will look upon this particular period as a kind of madness out of proportion to the risk of the illness involved.

[quote periwinklepetals]@howdiditcometothis666 I was just showing you that the care home recruitment issue isn’t UK wide, that’s all.

I apologise that it didn’t slot into your sensationalist narrative, have a lovely day [/quote]
My sensationalist narrative ? Because I said care homes were leaflet dropping here? hmm

@GreenWhiteViolet

The whole bus cheered?

I think these laws are frighteningly illiberal. I think the most that can be justified is a policy saying that new NHS employees must be vaccinated. That way, you know in advance and can make a decision. Nobody should lose their job because they don't want a vaccine. Nobody should be coerced into having one.

It's a long standing Mumsnet saying.

@Enb76

The whole bus cheered? hmm

I think these laws are frighteningly illiberal.

Me too - I also find the coerced suppression of opposition through job losses concerning and the authoritarianism of the cheerleaders a bit suspect.

As far as I can work out, the NHS is struggling due to staff being off with Covid and not due to the numbers of actual Covid patients. That's not a vaccination problem. While vaccination does reduce the chance of infection to earlier waves, the data on Omicron (which has displaced previous versions) is not so clear-cut.

In 2 years time my prediction is that no-one will need vaccines or boosters unless CEV or elderly and we will look upon this particular period as a kind of madness out of proportion to the risk of the illness involved.

Your final paragraph is the prediction of scientists too. As long as enough people keep up with the vaccine and other mitigations when the experts consider them necessary of course.

I work for nhs and have had all 3 jabs but I’m not doing anymore as it’s still spreading loads in hospitals but it’s mild or symptomless so unless that changes I feel I’ve done my bit. I completely support those who don’t want it done, It should be personal choice

@Hulahula86

I work for nhs and have had all 3 jabs but I’m not doing anymore as it’s still spreading loads in hospitals but it’s mild or symptomless so unless that changes I feel I’ve done my bit. I completely support those who don’t want it done, It should be personal choice

It is personal choice. That choice happens to have consequences.

It is personal choice. That choice happens to have consequences

Yes choices do have consequences which is exactly why every person should have a choice about which medical treatments they receive.

If covid was much deadlier and the vaccine stopped transmission there would be a strong case for HCPs to be vaccinated but the fact is that covid even before vaccination had an an overwhelming recovery rate and the vaccines that are now available have shown some reduction in transmission at a population level against pre omicron variants but this is meaningless on on individual level. I’m not aware of any recent stats against omicron but given the massive numbers of positive tests potentially not as effective.

Every person takes a risk when deciding to vaccinate or not vaccinate therefore, nobody should be threatening consequences to someone for taking/not taking an action that could have a serious impact one way or the other.

But what are we vaccinating against now? The dominant variant is omicron which evades the vaccines. Omicron has pretty much displaced alpha and delta in the uk. The vaccines were designed for those early more severe variants.
Omicron is milder and most young healthy people aren’t being affected severely by it and usually recovering fairly quickly.
What would be the reason for mandatory vaccines?

I don’t think it’s a good idea to force anyone to have it. Don’t really understand why anyone who has had covid itself, especially more than once, would need the vaccine anyway.

Just wondering if people die because the NHS has deliberately made itself short staffed with it's vaccine mandate, how it would stand up to be being sued? Presumably they have a cost benefit analysis which I guess must be updated regularly as the new Omicron data comes in eg boosters wane after 10 weeks?

I don't agree with mandatory vaccines at all. I'm with you!

@userperuser

It is personal choice. That choice happens to have consequences

Yes choices do have consequences which is exactly why every person should have a choice about which medical treatments they receive.

If covid was much deadlier and the vaccine stopped transmission there would be a strong case for HCPs to be vaccinated but the fact is that covid even before vaccination had an an overwhelming recovery rate and the vaccines that are now available have shown some reduction in transmission at a population level against pre omicron variants but this is meaningless on on individual level. I’m not aware of any recent stats against omicron but given the massive numbers of positive tests potentially not as effective.

Every person takes a risk when deciding to vaccinate or not vaccinate therefore, nobody should be threatening consequences to someone for taking/not taking an action that could have a serious impact one way or the other.

You’re contradicting yourself there.

Choices have consequences. At the moment one choice may rule you out of one type of employment. It’s no different to any other employment regulation. If you want to work as a police officer you have to wear a uniform. If you want to work in a variety of places you need to undergo regular drug/alcohol tests.

If you have a genuine medical exemption a risk assessment will be done. It might still be that you’re made redundant. But that’s no different to not being able to join the police or army with dodgy eyesight or hearing.

Personally I think care workers, NHS staff and all teachers and TA'S should be vaccinated as in Germany.

Yes absolutely.

I think everyone should be vaccinated unless they medically cannot. Especially those in the NHS and Care.

Nope, I can't support mandatory vaccines for anyone. Isn't the NHS struggling enough without the loss of more staff?

@userperuser

It is personal choice. That choice happens to have consequences

Yes choices do have consequences which is exactly why every person should have a choice about which medical treatments they receive.

If covid was much deadlier and the vaccine stopped transmission there would be a strong case for HCPs to be vaccinated but the fact is that covid even before vaccination had an an overwhelming recovery rate and the vaccines that are now available have shown some reduction in transmission at a population level against pre omicron variants but this is meaningless on on individual level. I’m not aware of any recent stats against omicron but given the massive numbers of positive tests potentially not as effective.

Every person takes a risk when deciding to vaccinate or not vaccinate therefore, nobody should be threatening consequences to someone for taking/not taking an action that could have a serious impact one way or the other.

The stats and research (which is obviously in its infancy given that Omicron was only found about 6 weeks ago) regarding the current vaccines/Omicron are that 2 doses of vaccine isn't very effective, but that the booster offers almost as much protection against severe symptoms and hospitalisation as it does for Delta, which is good news and bears out what the pp NHS employee has said, that it's very contagious in all situations but the vast majority of people being infected aren't ill with it, thanks to the vaccines they've had.

www.google.com/amp/s/directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/12/14/the-latest-on-the-omicron-variant-and-vaccine-protection/amp/

If you scroll down, there's a graphic showing the efficacy of the booster against Omicron/Delta and there's not much difference at all, thankfully. There is also a lengthy initial study coming out of South Africa, and one from Canada, both showing the same. If you Google "vaccine, Omicron" the studies are in the first few hits.

@Staffy1

I don’t think it’s a good idea to force anyone to have it. Don’t really understand why anyone who has had covid itself, especially more than once, would need the vaccine anyway.

Because all research carried out thus far has shown that: Infection alone- some immunity Vaccination- some immunity Infection followed by vaccination- more immunity.

Obviously it's more complex than that, but those are the raw facts coming out of the research.

Thanks PAFMO

Will have a look when I’ve got time.

'Choices have consequences' is lazy reasoning here. Presumably even the most ardent pro-vaccine poster wouldn't agree with a law like 'if you're not vaccinated, you should be locked in your house until the pandemic ends, because choices have consequences'. It's not a reasonable consequence that naturally follows your choice. To me, and many others, losing your job isn't a reasonable consequence either.

It isn't like 'if you're a police officer, you have to wear a uniform' because anyone who joins the police is well aware of that fact before they begin their training, and so anyone with a strong aversion to wearing a police uniform for any reason will choose a different career!