15 yr old doesn't want the vaccine.

[legohurts16]

My 15 yr old DD does not want the covid vaccine. She doesn't think the benefits outweigh the risks. She is very mature and has read up on the subject and is adamant that at the moment she doesn't want it.

Her reasons are that it was - a rushed vaccine with little testing- the illness is so mild in children and teens that she doesn't think it is necessary. Me and my DH really want her to have it but I suppose ultimately it is her decision. Her 13 yr old brother and all her cousins have been vaccinated and in her friendship group it is literally half and half.

She says at the moment she isn't planning on going to Spain or the US so it isn't necessary. My hubby is adamant she has to have it and has booked her an appointment for Monday and will take her kicking and screaming if he has too. Funnily enough at the start of the pandemic he was the one who said there would be no way he would vaccinate our children against a mild illness but now omricon is here he is worried for her.

Should she be forced if we feel it is right or should she be free to make her own choice?

I'm not saying that the criticism itself is necessarily silly but that the JCVI only ever looks at vaccinations in relation to the individual not the community so they are being criticised for fulfilling their specific role. Their are other organisations whose role is to look at vaccinations on a community scale. That's like criticising butcher's for only selling meat. If you want a full meal you have to visit more than one shop. If you want a full picture on vaccinations you need to listen to more than one organisation.

@Hellocatshome sort of - but if parents are purely looking at the JCVI recommendation, then that’s not good.

I completely agree that the consensus of medical opinion should be used in decision making - which should be represented by the NHS guidance.

When choosing whether or not to have a vaccine (or whether or not my child has a vaccine) I am looking at the risks and benefits to me (or my child). No-one else.

I and my children have chosen to be vaccinated. Other members of my family have chosen not to be.

NHS guidance is often wrong as it is based not only on medical, but political opinions. (Plus we are learning new things all the time).

@Comefromaway - I strongly disagree. The NHS info is my first port of call for any medical questions/needs. I rely on it often, and while I don’t think it’s perfect (and I don’t expect it to be perfect) I certainly do not think it is ‘often wrong’.

Yes we are leaning new things all the time. Do you think that does not feed into NHS guidance? Do you think emerging science needs to go through some pretty robust, peer reviewed research before it is deemed ‘safe’ to the general population - and before it appears as NHS advice?
I also think it’s a shame that people are so highly individualistic, that they show no concern to other members of their community. Can you not see that we function as a whole? That services interplay? That we need to function as a healthy community to support each other? That children need healthy adults in a school to teach them - and healthy NHS staff to keep a hospital running? Can you not see that reducing the infection rate for society as a whole benefits us all?

@Beadebaser
I also think it’s a shame that people are so highly individualistic, that they show no concern to other members of their community. Can you not see that we function as a whole? That services interplay? That we need to function as a healthy community to support each other? That children need healthy adults in a school to teach them - and healthy NHS staff to keep a hospital running? Can you not see that reducing the infection rate for society as a whole benefits us all?

Spot on

Her choice, the chance of a healthy teen dying from Covid is minuscule.

There is a girl from the Pfizer trial for 12-15 year olds who is now in a wheelchair having suffered neurological damage after the second dose.

Pfizer recorded this event as "abdominal pain'. There were only about 1100 children in the test group, so it wasn't widely tested at all

The case is Maddie de Garay. You can see her parents testifying here via Senator Gerard Rennick

www.facebook.com/watch/?v=637650331001531

If people think they have informed consent, they are sorely mistaken.

@hamstersarse

There is a girl from the Pfizer trial for 12-15 year olds who is now in a wheelchair having suffered neurological damage after the second dose.

Pfizer recorded this event as "abdominal pain'. There were only about 1100 children in the test group, so it wasn't widely tested at all

The case is Maddie de Garay. You can see her parents testifying here via Senator Gerard Rennick

www.facebook.com/watch/?v=637650331001531

If people think they have informed consent, they are sorely mistaken.

Unsuprised to see this kind of post.

Maddie De Garay has functional neurologic disorder, which is a pyschological condition (used to be termed psychosomatic illness or conversion disorder), not "neurological damage".

You're just repeating misinformation that is being used by several groups to coerce teenagers into not being vaccinated.

Many many more doses than 1000 have been given to 12-15 year olds. It is clear that this kind of psychological complication is not specifically linked to components of the vaccine, and has not been reported by anyone else.

We have accumulated a huge amount of data to demonstrate that the benefits of vaccination outweigh potential risks for 12-15 year olds. Does not mean teens should go ahead if they don't want to, but I'm getting a bit sick of the continued anti-vaccine narrative on these threads.

My thoughts go out to Maddie - it certainly won't be helping her recovery (being psychological in origin, such a huge amount of stress is incredibly detrimental) and I think the anti-vaccine groups should be ashamed of themselves for using her in this way.

I also find it predictable and tiring @hamstersarse, how you pick a single case of vaccine side effects in a teenager (ironically one that is not actually linked to the components of the vaccine), ignoring all the perfectly safe doses & prevention of long term complications from infection.

From your posting history you clearly have an agenda (previously claiming 1000+ people in the UK have died due to coronavirus vaccination), so probably little point in trying to engage.

Don't get vaccinated if you don't want to, but stop spreading misinformation designed to try scare others from having it.

@riveted1

There is nothing misinformation there.

Maddie de Garay was in the Pfizer trial for 12-15 year olds and now is in a wheelchair. There were only approx. 1100 children in the trial for 12-15 year olds. Pfizer did not report this in their findings.

If you are fine with them not reporting it (bearing in mind it is the actual law to report it, whether vaccine related or not) then that's cool.

My thoughts go out to Maddie - it certainly won't be helping her recovery (being psychological in origin, such a huge amount of stress is incredibly detrimental) and I think the anti-vaccine groups should be ashamed of themselves for using her in this way.

You clearly have not watched the testimony from her parents. They are the ones who are bringing this to light because Pfizer have ignored and suppressed it.

I am sure you will be accusing them of having Munchausens next.

@hamstersarse

My thoughts go out to Maddie - it certainly won't be helping her recovery (being psychological in origin, such a huge amount of stress is incredibly detrimental) and I think the anti-vaccine groups should be ashamed of themselves for using her in this way.

You clearly have not watched the testimony from her parents. They are the ones who are bringing this to light because Pfizer have ignored and suppressed it.

I am sure you will be accusing them of having Munchausens next.

I think you're confused - and repeating the stigma that patients with functional neurologic disorder face daily.

It is a psychological condition. This does not mean it is "made up" or related to Munchausens. That's a cheap (but unsuprising) shot. It is a real debilitating psychological condition which manifests as physical symptoms.

There is no cover up. It is ridiculous how in one post you claim it was reported as adominal complications and in the next say it wasn't reported at all.

It was in fact first reported as adominal symptoms as that is how they manifested first in poor Maddie - as something called reguargiation syndrome, where somone unconciously brings food back up after eating.

As I said your agenda is clear when you ignore the millions of doses that have been given to this age group with no complications, and focus on a single case not actually caused by the components of the vaccine.

Maddie has become the poster child for the anti-vaccine groups and it is really upsetting to see, she's just a teenage girl who needs to be supported.

It's not just her risk though is it - the more people that remain unvaccinated the more Covid can spread and mutate and infect those who are vulnerable.

Being part of society comes with responsibility , so whilst yes it is her choice, the choice she is making is quite a selfish one - imo.

Maddie De Garay has functional neurologic disorder, which is a pyschological condition

The term "functional neurological disorder" makes me absolutely furious.
I've got neurological damage from a medication. Fortunately I have now been correctly diagnosed by a neurologist, but several of the members in my support group were given the FND label by a neurologist in a different city where they seem to have a particular fondness for labelling people with it.

It's nonsense. People don't display neurological symptoms for psychological reasons. They might as well just write "hysteria" on their notes and be done with it.

It's at best incredibly lazy doctoring and a refusal to admit that they are failing to diagnose the underlying condition, and at worst it's gaslighting and absolute denial of what is frequently iatrogenic injury.

as something called reguargiation syndrome, where somone unconciously brings food back up after eating

I mean come on - what is more believable here? That people can somehow, subconsciously mind, start making themselves vomit, or that there is actually an underlying physical reason?!

@MaxNormal

as something called reguargiation syndrome, where somone unconciously brings food back up after eating

I mean come on - what is more believable here? That people can somehow, subconsciously mind, start making themselves vomit, or that there is actually an underlying physical reason?!

eh?

Regurgitation syndrom is real and diagnosable, and commonly co-occurs with FND or psychsomatic syndrome.

www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/rumination-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20377330#:~:text=Rumination%20syndrome%20is%20a%20condition,t%20acidic%2C%20as%20vomit%20is.

Again, a lot of stigma towards psychomatic illness in these posts. Just because something does not have a physical cause, does not mean they should be dismissed or not treated.

@MaxNormal

Maddie De Garay has functional neurologic disorder, which is a pyschological condition

The term "functional neurological disorder" makes me absolutely furious.
I've got neurological damage from a medication. Fortunately I have now been correctly diagnosed by a neurologist, but several of the members in my support group were given the FND label by a neurologist in a different city where they seem to have a particular fondness for labelling people with it.

It's nonsense. People don't display neurological symptoms for psychological reasons. They might as well just write "hysteria" on their notes and be done with it.

It's at best incredibly lazy doctoring and a refusal to admit that they are failing to diagnose the underlying condition, and at worst it's gaslighting and absolute denial of what is frequently iatrogenic injury.

I am sorry you have been misdiagnosed with FND which caused complications, and can only imagine how frustrating that was, but it's incredibly offensive to deny this condition exists just because you happened to not have it.

It does, and pretending it doesn't is so harmful to people affected who will benefit from CBT and other therapies.

I haven't been misdiagnosed, as I said other members of my support group were.

We will need to agree to disagree. And nothing I have said is objectively offensive.

Sorry to jump in but ...if FND is psychological in nature - shouldn't it be diagnosed by a psychiatrist not a neurologist?

@hamstersarse

And that is precisely the kind of post that makes me utterly furious, and furious with Mumsnet for allowing you to post. If you have deterred one person with your utter nonsense - that is one person too many.

For your highly controversial ‘case study’ which has been weaponised by anti vaxxers everywhere, I can give you 5.4 million case studies of people who have died from Covid - and 600 babies in the UK born prematurely because their mothers have been hospitalised with Covid.
Disgraceful that you are allowed to post and I’ve reported. I hope others have too.

@hamstersarse

If people had actual data about the risks of the vaccines, things would be better and this wouldn’t make you so furious. When people talk about informed consent, it’s not some joke or being anti vaxx, it’s just standard procedure.

You simply trot out that the vaccines are safe, but you don’t know how safe. Because no one does.

Do you agree that people can die? Do you accept that there have been deaths?
Most people seem to accept that the BBC presenter died directly from the vaccine, so we know it can happen.
But no one can tell you what the actual risk is.

Then, the trial data includes cases like Maddie de Garay, and people dismiss that as psychological. I’ve been in this arena for 30 years and I’ve never seen anyone in a wheelchair because of psychological issues.

So you see how suppression and censoring doesn’t help? Prove it wrong, don’t suppress it and flap around panicking people won’t take the vaccine.

Have explained several times how dismissing FND because it is not physical in origin is deeply offensive @hamstersarse. It is a real, though complex, psychological disorder, patients deserve respect and gold-standard treatment.

Not sure what working in "this area" is, but it certainly cannot be medicine or science, as you appear to be deeply uninformed and susceptible to COVID misinformation

Yes Lisa Shaw died due to the vaccine. In this case, the complications were not due to the vaccine. Billions of doses have been given out - no-one else has "ended up in a wheelchair".

Again I ask why you attempt to highlight these isolated cases, ignoring that infection itself causes far greater numbers of severe illness and death. You have an anti-vaccine agenda, are repeating things you've read while doing a basic websearch, with very little real understanding of epidemiology.

So you see how suppression and censoring doesn’t help? Prove it wrong, don’t suppress it and flap around panicking people won’t take the vaccine.
I agree deleteting posts does very little when you'll just NC and repeat the same misinformation - but neither does attempting to engage with you as you repeat the same old false claims on multiple threads.

No one can make an informed choice when they're being coereced by misinformation, and you repeatedly try to scare pregnant women and others into not being vaccinated by doing this. Ultimately MN is a parenting forum, and they should be taking a harder stance on it.

I am glad however, @hamstersarse, that you seem to have modified your previous claims that thousands of people have died in the UK due to the vaccines.

Perhaps some progress is being made (or not)..

@riveted1

I am glad however, *@hamstersarse*, that you seem to have modified your previous claims that thousands of people have died in the UK due to the vaccines.

Perhaps some progress is being made (or not)..

I haven’t no. Because I never said that. I simply repeated what the Yellow Card system is showing. And of course, we still don’t know either way whether those reported deaths on the yellow card system are attributable to the vaccine or not. No one does. Even now. Up to you what you think about that, but I’d prefer categorical answers by now, the emphasis being on the manufacturers to prove it isn’t their product.

Speaking of talking about things for which you’ve no knowledge, saying CBT could cure a psychological induced neurological disorder doesn’t really cover you in glory. CBT is a con in therapeutic terms, no reliable data that it even works for depression never mind the type of disorder you are proposing this girl may have,

I really don't care about being "covered in glory" or otherwise @hamstersarse, I care about the misinformation you seem to determined to spam over all vaccine threads. I care about preventable harm in a pandemic, and the fact that you seem determed to take away informed consent from others.

Just because you have been taken in by anti-vaccine groups and the misinformation that they peddle does not mean that it's ok to try and coerce others into being scared or turning down vaccination.

I have attempted to engage with you on many of your false claims but it makes little difference. The sad case of Maddie & how she is being used by these groups and posts like yours, which will be detrimental to her recovery, is just yet another. And yes, pyschological therapies are the gold standard treatment for functional neurologic disorder - not sure what depression has to do with it, but again, you seem confused and uninformed.