15 yr old doesn't want the vaccine.

[legohurts16]

My 15 yr old DD does not want the covid vaccine. She doesn't think the benefits outweigh the risks. She is very mature and has read up on the subject and is adamant that at the moment she doesn't want it.

Her reasons are that it was - a rushed vaccine with little testing- the illness is so mild in children and teens that she doesn't think it is necessary. Me and my DH really want her to have it but I suppose ultimately it is her decision. Her 13 yr old brother and all her cousins have been vaccinated and in her friendship group it is literally half and half.

She says at the moment she isn't planning on going to Spain or the US so it isn't necessary. My hubby is adamant she has to have it and has booked her an appointment for Monday and will take her kicking and screaming if he has too. Funnily enough at the start of the pandemic he was the one who said there would be no way he would vaccinate our children against a mild illness but now omricon is here he is worried for her.

Should she be forced if we feel it is right or should she be free to make her own choice?

[quote Beadebaser]@glimpsing no I won’t!
And @XenoBitch
I linked the NHS consent thingy earlier. Parental consent IS still part of consent until age 16.
After that I’ve done my job![/quote]
You have misinterpreted that link. Parental consent is ONLY part of consent if a child has not got the capacity to understand what they are consenting to.

It’s commonly known as Gillick Competence.

@Thievesoil

curious how do you feel about this in relation to the “quiet” withdrawal of AZ though? I appreciated that wasn’t “rushed” but the subsequent clotting issues spooked me. What do we not know about mRNA? I have to say the denial of issues relating to menstruation has also spooked me. Tests might not have been rushed but it seems to me that info is still being amassed. Whilst I’m happy the risk outweighs the benefit for the vulnerable, I will not be getting this for the DCs

My then 19 year old was given the AZ vaccine. I shudder now when I think of the increased risk she underwent.

I am very pro vaccine but feel that in young people it’s not a black or white decision.

I think Beadebaser's argument is that because OP's DD is basing her judgment on incorrect assessment of the evidence, she has de facto not got the capacity to consent. And therefore Gillick Competence is disproved in this case.

I'm not sure I agree, but it is a valid argument, one worthy of consideration.

The counter-argument would, I think, be that even if OP's DD isn't fully competent to assess the risk, she is still entitled to make a decision that affects her own body. She's 15, if she were 6 it might be different.

I don’t understand your post @Sarahschild

@thing47

I think Beadebaser's argument is that because OP's DD is basing her judgment on incorrect assessment of the evidence, she has de facto not got the capacity to consent. And therefore Gillick Competence is disproved in this case.

I'm not sure I agree, but it is a valid argument, one worthy of consideration.

The counter-argument would, I think, be that even if OP's DD isn't fully competent to assess the risk, she is still entitled to make a decision that affects her own body. She's 15, if she were 6 it might be different.

I read Beadebaser's argument that anyone under 16 that does not want the vaccine must have been misinformed, therefore their lack of consent should not matter. I think it is very important that a 15 year old girl knows that she can say no to anything that is happening to her body, and she does not have to justify it at all. No is an answer.

@5zeds

I don’t understand your post *@Sarahschild*

I am using sarcasm. I think people know what to do to limit the spread. Don't need to be told off again, the government does that enough thanks.

Just to add, there is a huge difference between being misinformed, and lacking capacity. OP could take her DD to a vaccine centre, and if her DD sits their spouting stuff like there is a chip in the vaccine and other blatant untruths, if she says no, she wont get jabbed.
A pp said she has witnessed people being pulled up for safeguarding when trying to force a teen to get the jab.. that sent chills down my spine. How the hell has it come to this?

@Hotcoffee10

Sensible girl. Very little rationale for vaccinating teenagers. The vaccine does not stop transmission so protect the vulnerable does not hold. It is associated with a rare but serious side effect of myocarditis and long term outcomes of this are unknown. There may be other rare and serious side effects. There is not high quality evidence of safety of this vaccine in teens, exactly the opposite, there is very little evidence.

It is very touching you all think the great and the good are putting health first but this vaccine is profits and reputations before the health of children.

What are the figures for myocarditis in teenage girls specifically, and did they require hospital in patient treatment?

If a 15 year old is old enough to organise her own contraception without parental consent then I think she can make up her mind about a vaccine.
Im not sure what the laws are in UK but a 14 year old can go to the GP and go on the pill or whatever she chooses without parental consent in Australia.
I cannot access my 15 year old's medical info on Medicare. I have to get a new account for him once over 14 and he has to consent to that.
Not old enough to drive or vote but can make health decisions.

I'd be so disappointed I f my children were so stupid but I wouldn't force them.

*You come over as anxious to me, not because you are pushing the recommendation for vaccination and social distancing, which as you rightly say, is mainstream, official advice and sensible for most people.

Its the emotion in your responses that give that impression, the strength and fixity with which the opinion is held, rather than the opinion itself. The vehemence and hyperbole and level of fear you are displaying about the decisions of others, seem OTT and based in fear. They’re certainly a level above most responses, with one or two exceptions*

I disagree and furthermore you are being quite rude. I also think you are gaslighting and trying to reframe rational points as irrational anxiety.

I think that the more selfish on here just don't want to be reminded that we live in a community and have responsibilities towards others.

The 'anxious' on this thread are those advocating for vaccine refusal based on flimsy (if any) evidence.

Tbh I can see her point. The risks of Covid to kids and teens is very very low, the vaccine does not stop you from contracting Covid but reduces severe disease, so that for most children is irrelevant. The vaccine has not stopped transmission as much as I think they were hoping it would, so to many what is the point of vaccinating children? They will still get it, but still got in mildly and they can still transmit it to the vulnerable. I don't have a teen but a 4 and 9 year old. I won't be getting my 9 yr old vaccinated if that's where it goes as I see not rational for it. If the vaccines really did stop transmission then that's a whole other ball game, but sadly they don't.

I have had 3 jabs myself and did not hesitate to have them. But the risk/ benefit to kids and teens is so different.

@hotcoffe10 I don't even know where to start with your posts which are full of misinformation & feel it is a little pointless given that many posters have tried to engage with you in the past and you continue to repeat them.

There are no trials in people of any age showing a benefit in terms of deaths
The level of misunderstanding is just mind boggling.

Too add your daughter will not get vaccinated without her consent. Gillick competence.

To repeat the sensible advice @legohurts16 - no she shouldn't have it if she doesn't want to, yes you should be providing her with resources so she can make an informed decision as currently she is not. One option would be for her to visit a walk in centre under the proviso she's under no pressure to have it but can have a chance for someone qualified to answer questions.

Good lord though all these threads do is dredge up the same old repeated false claims and NC-ing posters.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

*You come over as anxious to me, not because you are pushing the recommendation for vaccination and social distancing, which as you rightly say, is mainstream, official advice and sensible for most people.

Its the emotion in your responses that give that impression, the strength and fixity with which the opinion is held, rather than the opinion itself. The vehemence and hyperbole and level of fear you are displaying about the decisions of others, seem OTT and based in fear. They’re certainly a level above most responses, with one or two exceptions*

I disagree and furthermore you are being quite rude. I also think you are gaslighting and trying to reframe rational points as irrational anxiety.

I think that the more selfish on here just don't want to be reminded that we live in a community and have responsibilities towards others.

The 'anxious' on this thread are those advocating for vaccine refusal based on flimsy (if any) evidence.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but recognise that it is coloured by your own biases. You appear to feel very very strongly that everyone should have the vaccine regardless of their own personal health status or preference. That will be affecting your responses.

I'm not trying to be rude and I'm not gaslighting. I'm saying it as I see it. This is how that poster is coming across to me. Some of their analogies in their attempt to paint the OP's DD as selfish and irresponsible have been absolutely wild.

If you think asking somebody about possible anxiety is rude, perhaps you need to examine your attitude to mental health issues.

There is nothing wrong with being anxious. But it does tend to affect decisions. And yes, you are right that it can lead people to attach too much relevance to the statistically low risk of vaccine damage. It can also lead people to be irrationally fearful of Covid, when they do not have a high risk of detriment from it.

It cuts both ways.

You obviously feel very strongly that everyone should 'take one for the team' on the vaccine, regardless of their personal risk from Covid. It's a valid view, shared by many. I completely agree with you that we live as a community and have responsibilities towards others. However, I personally don't feel that children should be asked to protect adults - to me, a caring and evolved society is one that views children as amongst the most vulnerable. To me, adults should always be the ones protecting children, not the other way around. That is how I view my responsibility to my young child, and it's how I was brought up and I feel that is right. So to me, the 'selfish' ones are the adults who are expecting children to take a vaccine they by and large don't need, so that anti-vac adults don't need to have theirs.

@Totallydefeated

100% agree with you!

To repeat the sensible advice @legohurts16 - no she shouldn't have it if she doesn't want to, yes you should be providing her with resources so she can make an informed decision as currently she is not

Agreed entirely. Dragging her there is wrong and your DH is wrong, OP (although I think OP is long gone) but accepting her 'research' as a properly informed decision is also wrong. Support her to do proper research and to have the opportunity to ask questions.

I do feel for her especially since this thread (and a zillion others) has shown that it is very easy to fall for misinformed batshittery promulgated by zealous and unscrupulous anti-vaxxers.

@Sarahschild ahh I see, you think people who avoid vaccines and “support” those that ignore government guidance on who should be vaccinated to reduce risk to all, follow government advice on how to minimise transmission ? I fail to see the logic in that.

Apologies for not seeing the sarcasm it didn’t register.

You obviously feel very strongly that everyone should 'take one for the team' on the vaccine, regardless of their personal risk from Covid

Ignoring the rest of your post for now, I just want to point out that the above is not what I have said at all. As well as interpreting others' wholly rational responses through your own lens you are creating strawpeople by twisting words to suit your own ends.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

You obviously feel very strongly that everyone should 'take one for the team' on the vaccine, regardless of their personal risk from Covid

Ignoring the rest of your post for now, I just want to point out that the above is not what I have said at all. As well as interpreting others' wholly rational responses through your own lens you are creating strawpeople by twisting words to suit your own ends.

You've agreed with lots of posts that have implied this, including things like posters saying they would be 'disgusted'(!) if a child didn't take a vaccine to protect others. I've not created any straw people.

We all view things through our own lens.

I feel disgusted if I see a child pick it’s nose and eat it, or trip over a smaller child or take advantage of someone less able. Disgust is “a feeling of revulsion or strong disapproval”.

I see nothing attractive or to be approved of, in a teenager refusing to be vaccinated. The child can’t be forced and is free to refuse consent so OP really doesn’t have a dilemma.

@thing47
@XenoBitch

What I’m saying is:

1. I’d talk through the NHS guidance on the Covid vaccine with my teenager
2. if I believed her reasoning about not having the vaccine was based on misinformation, then I would conclude that she doesn’t have a full understanding/Gillick competence
3. I would then seek advice from GP/school nurse/medical professional - and book an appointment for her
4. if the medical professional and my daughter came to the conclusion that it’s best that she doesn’t have it - I’d leave it there - or follow that professional’s advice.