15 yr old doesn't want the vaccine.

[legohurts16]

My 15 yr old DD does not want the covid vaccine. She doesn't think the benefits outweigh the risks. She is very mature and has read up on the subject and is adamant that at the moment she doesn't want it.

Her reasons are that it was - a rushed vaccine with little testing- the illness is so mild in children and teens that she doesn't think it is necessary. Me and my DH really want her to have it but I suppose ultimately it is her decision. Her 13 yr old brother and all her cousins have been vaccinated and in her friendship group it is literally half and half.

She says at the moment she isn't planning on going to Spain or the US so it isn't necessary. My hubby is adamant she has to have it and has booked her an appointment for Monday and will take her kicking and screaming if he has too. Funnily enough at the start of the pandemic he was the one who said there would be no way he would vaccinate our children against a mild illness but now omricon is here he is worried for her.

Should she be forced if we feel it is right or should she be free to make her own choice?

Tbh it doesn't matter if you decide your child is gillick competent. That's for the HCP to decide and neither they or your GP or anyone else has the time or inclination to sift through research papers and compare statistics with your dc. Unless your dc had significant additional needs or was spouting extreme conspiracy theory views or something it would be a case of them saying no being the final word

@liveforsummer
I agree it would be for the HCP to decide, but it’s also up to me to listen to my child and support if I believe they are making the wrong decision/misinformed - and suggest that my child talks it over with school nurse or HCP.
And according to guidelines, I have a part to play until my child is 16.

And according to guidelines, I have a part to play until my child is 16.

How do you see the cut off point when they reach 16? Mine is nearly 18 and over the years we have gradually encouraged more responsibility (ability to respond) in making decisions. Getting them to do their own research, asking them how they feel about it, what they have based their decisions on, how they feel about conflicting information. Otherwise the change from your decision to their's can be rather abrupt. Mine still seeks our opinions sometimes too much for validation and we have to reiterate they are our only opinions but equally why we think them and they have access to the relevant information. On some things they have more expertise!

Putting aside the arguments about having/not having the vaccine, does your husband not realise that he can't physically make her have it if she doesn't want to? What's he going to do? March her in and hold her down?? The medical staff will rightly only give the vaccine with her consent. They are not going to stand for him dragging her in there!

The whole idea of making her do this - to have something put into her that she doesn't want - is awful! I can't tell you how angry and violated I'd feel as a 15 year old if my parents strong armed me/ground me down into doing something with my body that I didn't want to do.

I'm totally pro-vaccine and very much pro you discussing the pros and cons with your daughter, but please don't get to the point where she's feels coerced by you into having it.

[quote Beadebaser]@liveforsummer
I agree it would be for the HCP to decide, but it’s also up to me to listen to my child and support if I believe they are making the wrong decision/misinformed - and suggest that my child talks it over with school nurse or HCP.
And according to guidelines, I have a part to play until my child is 16.[/quote]
Yes but if you think the HCP's involvement will be any more than accepting the child's refusal and perhaps listening to a short explanation then you're mistaken. Some of these HCP's own children will not be vaccinated

In the case of a covid vaccination for a healthy teenager, no HCP would go against a teenager who wasn't consenting. It is likely they would refuse a discussion in the first place because it isn't a good use of their time. If the teenager doesn't have a learning disability or something else where their understanding may be called into question, Gillick Competence would be unlikely to be questioned.

I know several healthcare professionals who have decided that their own children are going to wait to be vaccinated.

I'm CEV and as such my DD 12 was eligible before it was opened up to all 12-15 year olds. We gave her the choice which she chose to have it but it was her decision. At the appt the dr asked her if we had forced her to attend and if she was happy to have it.

@liveforsummer

I’s say that’s dependent on the child’s reasoning?

E.g Child - I’ve heard that the vaccine will make me infertile.

HCP - that’s misinformation.

If the child hears that from me and a HCP - that is going to help the child in their decision making process.

And surely that’s a worthwhile conversation to have?

@Comefromaway that is anecdotal evidence. People should be basing their decisions on the medical consensus of opinion - not your anecdotal evidence.

If you force her now - it can massively backfire. Consent is the keyword here. You may get accused of abuse if not now, then later.

I can’t believe all these people saying they would be disgusted if their teenager didn’t have it. The vaccine may reduce transmission somewhat and reduce serious illness in the individual but it doesn’t stop you getting covid. Getting annoyed at a 15 year old refusing to take it who is unlikely to ever end up in hospital from Covid is crazy. If she doesn’t want it she doesn’t want it and that’s that. I can guarantee trying to force her until she makes the ‘right’ decision is just going to make her dig her heels in more. Whatever happened to freedom of choice. Why should she be forced to take it when plenty of adults haven’t taken it who are far more likely to need hospital treatment. It just seems like a massive over reaction.

[quote Beadebaser]@Comefromaway that is anecdotal evidence. People should be basing their decisions on the medical consensus of opinion - not your anecdotal evidence.[/quote]
I mentioned it not so that people would base their decisions on it, but to explain that a HCP is very unlikely to do any more to persuade OP’s Dd than OP herself has already done when many of them have reached the same conclusion as OPS DD.

The body of evidence isn’t cut or dried, you have interpreted it one way, I have interpreted it another, my friend who is a nurse and unvaccinated has interpreted it a third way.

Who is to say which is right when even the medical professionals themselves cannot agree?

@Comefromaway

Because I think the best thing to do is follow the NHS guidance and the consensus of medical opinion.

Social media is rife with misinformation - and anecdotal evidence should not take precedence over the NHS guidance.

I think - as I said before - it’s very dependent on the child’s reasoning. Any health care professional will be able to support a child who refuses the vaccine because say - the child has heard it will make them infertile.

Any health care professional will be able to support a child who refuses the vaccine because say - the child has heard it will make them infertile.

Scientists say they don't know. What guarantees can your nurse give?

You see, I’ve read the NHS guidance. It says they are “offering” the vaccine to 12-17 year olds. It outlines the benefits and risks. Any vaccine or medical procedure has benefits and risks and it is up to the individual to weigh those up and decide for themselves if they feel the benefits outweigh the risks or not.

In older age groups the data clearly shows that the benefits outweigh the risks in terms of the statistics.

In 12-17 the data does not show that hence the JVCI decision.

The decision to offer the vaccine to 12-17 year olds (a decision I agreed with) was only partly medical and partly political.

Hence why I don’t agree with your view that any child refusing at this stage is making a bad decision.

The JVCI didn’t recommend - they said the risk from Covid to a child is marginally greater than the risk from the vaccine. Both risks being small.

I linked an article earlier about the criticism surrounding the JVCI decision. Questioning whether long Covid had been taken fully into account, and whether the more consideration should have been taken regarding the impact on the wider community.

I would say the NHS guidance is not recommending as such, but does highlight the advantages of taking the vaccine.

I would want to support my child if they were making a ‘bad decision’ ie - a decision based on misinformation.

@Comefromaway

I linked an article earlier about the criticism surrounding the JVCI decision. Questioning whether long Covid had been taken fully into account, and whether the more consideration should have been taken regarding the impact on the wider community.

The JCVI doesn't look at the impact/benefits of the wider community it only looks at vaccinations with regards to the risk/benefit of the individual. It has always been this way so that is a silly think to criticise them over.

@Comefromaway

You see, I’ve read the NHS guidance. It says they are “offering” the vaccine to 12-17 year olds. It outlines the benefits and risks. Any vaccine or medical procedure has benefits and risks and it is up to the individual to weigh those up and decide for themselves if they feel the benefits outweigh the risks or not.

In older age groups the data clearly shows that the benefits outweigh the risks in terms of the statistics.

In 12-17 the data does not show that hence the JVCI decision.

The decision to offer the vaccine to 12-17 year olds (a decision I agreed with) was only partly medical and partly political.

Hence why I don’t agree with your view that any child refusing at this stage is making a bad decision.

I agree. I don't think any teen making the choice to not have the vaccine is making a bad or wrong decision. I am quite shocked by some of the very narrow minded views here! A well informed decision may be one that others disagree with, does not mean it is bad or wrong.

I am a HCP, I work in A&E so I have come across a fair few people who have chosen not to vaccinate. Trust me it's not the teens that trouble me, I totally understand why they would not have a vaccine, especially as the vaccine is LESS effective at reducing transmission than we hoped it would be. It's the older adults who not only choose not to get themselves vaccinated, despite the greater risks of Covid and they also advise their elderly parents not to get the vaccine or choose not to get their adult child with multiple disabilities vaccinated etc. These are the people that do end up in ITU.

@Hellocatshome

Well - ‘silly think’ here :

Ravi Gupta, a professor of clinical microbiology at the University of Cambridge and a co-opted member of the government’s New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group (Nervtag) said he shared some of the concerns raised about the JCVI. “Besides apparently ignoring the modelling, I’m worried about the lack of appreciation of the negative impacts of mass infection in children, such as long Covid and the risks of new variants emerging because of the low vaccine coverage in 12- to 15-year-olds.
“Another issue from my point of view is the lack of internationally known and active researchers on the committee who know the virus. With better representation things would have been very different.

Danny Altmann, a professor of immunology at Imperial College London, said: “Among the numerous contributory factors to the currently high caseload and deaths in the UK relative to mainland Europe, a significant one is certainly the impact of having delayed vaccines in secondary schools such that children returned unprotected for the autumn term.”

In October, the British Congenital Cardiac Association said that with case rates very high among under-18s in England and Wales, the “balance of benefits versus risks clearly weighs in favour of the Covid-19 vaccine.”

The criticisms of the JCVI came as members of Independent Sage and other researchers published work in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine suggesting that fully vaccinating healthy adolescents would reduce hospital admissions, deaths and cases of long Covid at the high case levels now seen in the UK.

I don’t think that’s ‘silly’.