No new measures in England before New Year

[Jourdain11]

Has just been announced by the Health Secretary and reported across BBC etc.

It’s not such great news for many of us

All holidays cancelled and being called in over Christmas and now over new year

Because so many have to self isolate

Instead of selfish vs selfless , perhaps we should think of individualistic vs collectivist.

Thanks Piggy. This is very much what I was trying to say, so am happy to not use the word ‘selfish’ and change it accordingly to individualistic.

Which side is selfish?
The comfortable well off who benefited from lockdowns by staying in as others risked their health to make sure they had food, books, gadgets and stuff delivered to them or those who want restrictions lifted so they can socialise with friends and family, send their kids to school and go to work?

@TheScenicWay

Which side is selfish? The comfortable well off who benefited from lockdowns by staying in as others risked their health to make sure they had food, books, gadgets and stuff delivered to them or those who want restrictions lifted so they can socialise with friends and family, send their kids to school and go to work?

Quite. The people I know most in favour of lockdowns etc are middle class, work from home types. With big pleasant houses & gardens.

Look at how many people dodge taxes, and consistently vote in governments with a low tax policy.

Minorities in both cases. But voting for low tax parties is ethically completely different to fiddling taxes.

I'm very happy with that alternative formulation, thank you Piggy.

I also agree with the PP who formulated it as caring about a community (including those personally unknown) rather than just an individual / family.

In real life, I would say that I primarily know people who would say 'On the one hand, from my own personal point of view I would want X, but as I can see that from the point of view of a different group / community X would cause a problem, I am prepared to go with Y'.

@TheScenicWay

Which side is selfish? The comfortable well off who benefited from lockdowns by staying in as others risked their health to make sure they had food, books, gadgets and stuff delivered to them or those who want restrictions lifted so they can socialise with friends and family, send their kids to school and go to work?

It's not a choice between those two things though. It's possible to not have lockdown but have pretty open economies with masks, good contact tracing, testing, ventilation, local shutdowns if needed where there are outbreaks (e.g. at one point they closed nightclubs in Bangkok IIRC because of an outbreak, but only for a few weeks) etc. In fact in those countries that have done this they've had far less time in lockdown and far less economic damage.

I think Piggy has nailed it with the collectivist vs individualistic analysis. But one set of countries have done better in terms of health, AND economy, AND lack of disruption AND death.

The thing I find the most frustrating with living here is the fact the government make the same mistakes over and over and over again. It's like dealing with a toddler - if you tip your cup like that it's going to spill, remember last time....oh dear. The NHS staff must be getting so fed up of clearing up after them.

Re individualistic societies that may be so but it should be considered alongside effectiveness of media in terms of behaviour change. The U.K. is good at this and you can easily see impact in terms of demand.

Also worth considering what type of society produces effective vaccines. As all the collective action won’t help the world as much as working vaccines to end crisis

In terms of how selfish people are - I’d say many have made sacrifices in a very unselfish way in last two years which should be acknowledged more, but also most people using the word are just as personally motivated as anyone else.

Not sure that's a full appreciation of what is meant by collectivist marsha. Collectivist doesn't mean less developed! Italy, France, Scandinavian countries, Japan- all collectivist.

My post was an entirely objective attempt at finding different terms.

All countries have media so I am not sure I get your point there.

I did not say less developed nor that they did not have the media

But you can consider what a society produces, and include competition and personal reward in that. And why vaccines would be developed quickly and successfully by US / Germany and U.K.

On media we have a strong media with good influence and we are well known as leaders in behaviour change if you look at the speciality

It’s an interesting topic, for a class even, but worth updating with more nuance and debate.

AZ vaccine was very little to do with competition, it was mostly publicly-funded research.

It is a myth that competition delivers better outcomes.

Still funded within a more ‘individualistic’ country, as per pp - so whatever drove that in society allowed it to prosper.

Not sure that's a full appreciation of what is meant by collectivist marsha. Collectivist doesn't mean less developed! Italy, France, Scandinavian countries, Japan- all collectivist.

Where are you getting your definition of 'collectivist'?

Japan is collectivist yes, although less so than many other Asian countries. But the other countries all score highly on 'Individualism' according to the Hofstede index. The same is true for most if not all European countries. I had to laugh at your inclusion of Italy in particular. Having lived there, I'd say it's about as individualist as it's possible for a society to be. High levels of distrust of strangers and authorities.

The Scandinavian countries are also highly individualist but simultaneously very egalitarian, which goes against your theory that 'collectivist' countries are more equal. I'm curious to know what definition of 'collectivism' you are using here?

Errmmm for a class even?? I don't follow,

It's well known sociology/ economics. Perhaps read Wilkinson and Pickett for further analysis or 'nuance' if required. I was not criticising. merely mulling wider reasons for different responses. I don't think you want my nuance. We'd be here all day.

It is not about competition and personal reward entirely. Japan is a capitalist country but collectivist. Israel and India are highly collectivist and at the forefront of vaccine developments. It was Boris Johnson that said we were so great at vaccine development because Capitalism. Which is plainly ridiculous.

@MarshaBradyo

Still funded within a more ‘individualistic’ country, as per pp - so whatever drove that in society allowed it to prosper.

Well I disagree completely but CBA to argue

Question - is it the relative failure of the individualistic country to control the pandemic that drove the urgency of vaccine development? If so, I don't think that 'something relatively good came out of our abject failure' is exactly something to boast about?

It's not my theory iced!

Scandinavia countries are collectivist not individualist - hence egalitarianism.

Can't recommend The Spirit Level enough , tbh.

@Piggywaspushed

It's not my theory iced!

But you are the one offering this theory here, so obviously I'm going to ask you about it.

By what criteria is Italy 'collectivist'?

@IcedPurple

To those criticising this decision, and saying 'the scientists' should be listened to, what restrictions would you introduce, and what is your scientific basis for thinking they be effective?

Totally agree with you

@cantkeepawayforever

Question - is it the relative failure of the individualistic country to control the pandemic that drove the urgency of vaccine development? If so, I don't think that 'something relatively good came out of our abject failure' is exactly something to boast about?

Really? Even when it’s at cost due to vision of scientists.

All those working so hard to develop it at pace.

Really feel for them, some cannot say a good thing about it.

The Hofstede index (just looked it up) is measuring differently but still has a big gap between US/UK and European countries.

Spain might have been abetter example than Italy, admittedly.

@Piggywaspushed

Scandinavia countries are collectivist not individualist - hence egalitarianism.

Can't recommend The Spirit Level enough , tbh.

Not according to the Hofstede index. They all score highly on Individualism.

Australia is also one of the most individualistic countries in the world according to the same index, which again goes against your theory that 'collectivist' countries had similar responses.

And there's no 'hence' which suggests that 'collectivism' invariably leads to 'egalitarianism'. Look at China. Simultaneously one of the most collectivist and the most unequal countries in the world.

I think Piggy has nailed it with the collectivist vs individualistic analysis.

I disagree... the "collectivist" approach is fixated on protection from Covid to the exclusion of how the rest of society. As the pandemic draws on, and the risk from Covid diminishes due to vaccines, treatments and infection based immunity,
not to mention the relative weakness of Omicron, it's becoming more obsessive and less balanced as time progresses, and has not become reconcile themselves that Covid is going nowhere, and they won't be able to hide from it forever.

[quote PinkTree7]@PollyIndia

Me and DH can both work easily from home and the DC’s school provided ample live lessons during the last lockdown.

Frankly there’s very few reasons for us to need to leave home, given that we can get supermarket and takeaway deliveries.[/quote]
Oh well that is ok then stuff the people that wiil lose their homes and business due to losing their jobs to stay at home and the millions of mental health as long as you are ok 🤦🏻‍♀️