No new measures in England before New Year

[Jourdain11]

Has just been announced by the Health Secretary and reported across BBC etc.

Ultimately, everyone is interested in how things affect themselves and those around them. It is a bit unrealistic to pretend otherwise.

@ChloeDecker

Nothing to do with uneasy. It's just trite, sanctimonious and irritating. In your opinion.

In my opinion, it’s often because some people don’t like to have selfish opinions called out. After all, one is about how it affects them and the other is how it affects others.

But why should anyone care about what random MNers consider 'selfish opinions'? Who made you the arbiter on such matters?

@Jourdain11

Ultimately, everyone is interested in how things affect themselves and those around them. It is a bit unrealistic to pretend otherwise.

Yes, but for some this is their only concern. Others balance this with wider considerations, while yet others might think primarily about the wider implications (so I would hope, for example, that Chris Whitty thinks about the wider public rather than just himself).

@Jourdain11

Ultimately, everyone is interested in how things affect themselves and those around them. It is a bit unrealistic to pretend otherwise.

Two years ago, everyone accepted that the vast majority, if not all of us, care way more about ourselves and our families than we do about anyone else. This wasn't considered 'selfish', just normal, universal human behaviour.

I don't have the slightest doubt that those casually throwing around the 's' word are way more interested in themselves and their families than they are in the 'greater good', however that be defined.

@JanglyBeads

The 5 million figure for worldwide deaths is only for confirmed cases.

Yes it'll be like a cold for "most" - but even then there's the risks of long covid, and PIMS in children.

And what about the few, including but not limited to the CEV, many of whom are working and living largely "normal" lives, parenting children etc etc?

What about them? We’ve ranked the economy, given up our basic freedoms & everything else for 2 years. Isnt that enough?

No man is an island. Especially in a pandemic!

Um I guess it depends how much you care about other people.

@Jourdain11

Ultimately, everyone is interested in how things affect themselves and those around them. It is a bit unrealistic to pretend otherwise.

What benefits me best is usually aligned with what benefits wider society.

Not everyone prioritises their short term, individual interests over their longer term, broader interests.

For example, research suggests a third of people would fiddle their expenses, meaning two-thirds would not. There is a majority of people who see the wider good and their personal good as one and the same.

What about them? We’ve ranked the economy, given up our basic freedoms & everything else for 2 years. Isnt that enough?

I view 'them' as us.

@Jourdain11

Ultimately, everyone is interested in how things affect themselves and those around them. It is a bit unrealistic to pretend otherwise.

I agree

Using ‘selfish’ for others is likely to reflect the personal situation of person saying it, in a hope for compliance, although as an insult it won’t do that

@JanglyBeads

Um I guess it depends how much you care about other people.

Depends. People professing to "care about others" didn't seem to care about children falling behind in their education and their social skills suffering when they were demanding school closures in 2020.

For example, research suggests a third of people would fiddle their expenses, meaning two-thirds would not

No, research suggests that a third of people would admit to fiddling their expenses. Which is not the same thing at all.

It's well-known that people tend to give the 'right' answer in polls, even when completely anonymous. Hence the 'shy Tory' phenomenon, and also those polls saying a majority supported 'keeping masks' in England, even though clearly most chose not to wear them when they were not obligatory.

@JanglyBeads

Um I guess it depends how much you care about other people.

You could say that to the small minority of people who want to impose years of restrictions on others in order to protect themselves, couldn’t you?

People professing to "care about others" didn't seem to care about children falling behind in their education and their social skills suffering when they were demanding school closures in 2020.

Also, how much do these people patting themselves on the back for their selflessness care about others in non-pandemic terms? Do they give away all their spare cash to charities? Do they spend all their free time volunteering?

I doubt it.

@IcedPurple

For example, research suggests a third of people would fiddle their expenses, meaning two-thirds would not

No, research suggests that a third of people would admit to fiddling their expenses. Which is not the same thing at all.

It's well-known that people tend to give the 'right' answer in polls, even when completely anonymous. Hence the 'shy Tory' phenomenon, and also those polls saying a majority supported 'keeping masks' in England, even though clearly most chose not to wear them when they were not obligatory.

The vast majority of people are decent.

I'm sorry if you don't believe that, but my experiences with people are that people are pretty alright.

It is the same percentage for most dodgy behaviours.

The vast majority of people either a) state they vote Tory or b) don't vote Tory. The percentage who lie about it is small.

@IcedPurple

People professing to "care about others" didn't seem to care about children falling behind in their education and their social skills suffering when they were demanding school closures in 2020.

Also, how much do these people patting themselves on the back for their selflessness care about others in non-pandemic terms? Do they give away all their spare cash to charities? Do they spend all their free time volunteering?

I doubt it.

They don't care about all the people who lost their jobs either. It's all just to make themselves feel morally superior.

Having restrictions and having no restrictions come with downsides. It's not as black and white as one side "caring about others" and the other side not.

They don't care about all the people who lost their jobs either.

I care about those who lost their jobs and the health side. My DH lost his job too.

It is just that I don't believe the uncontrolled spread of covid is going to be great for health or the economy or education. But I care about all those things.

@rrhuth

They don't care about all the people who lost their jobs either.

I care about those who lost their jobs and the health side. My DH lost his job too.

It is just that I don't believe the uncontrolled spread of covid is going to be great for health or the economy or education. But I care about all those things.

OK, then let's quit the "we want restrictions because we care more about others than you" narrative because it's getting tedious.

I have not said that anywhere @Waxonwaxoff0

I'm bloody sick of anyone who cares at all about the health side being accused of not caring about jobs. That's fucking tedious too.

The vast majority of people are decent.

I don't disagree.

However, even 'decent' people are 'selfish' according to many here, in the sense that they care way more about themselves and their families than they do about random strangers. Most people are not prepared to make significant sacrifices to help people they don't know. You can call them 'selfish' if it makes you feel superior, but that is the way all societies everywhere work.

It is the same percentage for most dodgy behaviours.

But enough people must be prepared to do 'dodgy behaviours' or we wouldn't need laws to stop them. To use your example, and putting aside the fact that as I said, 'studies' based on self-reporting are unreliable, how many of those saying they wouldn't 'fiddle expenses' are primarily motivated by fear of possible consequences? In other words, if they could 'fiddle expenses' safe in the knowledge nobody would find out, how many more would be prepared to do it?

Most people are not prepared to make significant sacrifices to help people they don't know. I disagree. People make huge efforts for their communities which is a group they identify with whilst they do not know them personally.

I believe most people are decent, I myself try to be decent, and in addition I see being decent as acting in my best interests.

@rrhuth

I have not said that anywhere *@Waxonwaxoff0*

I'm bloody sick of anyone who cares at all about the health side being accused of not caring about jobs. That's fucking tedious too.

Maybe you haven't, but that is the general tone on MN sometimes. The word "selfish" is bandied about constantly.

Instead of selfish vs selfless , perhaps we should think of individualistic vs collectivist. England (Not so much Scotland) tends to be at the individualistic end of the spectrum, along with the US. Countries like Japan are at the collectivist end (as are several European countries so it's not entirely huge cultural divides) . This has affected pandemic response and perhaps errantly at time, planning (eg back at the beginning when lockdown was delated because various scientists didn't believe the public would comply).

Ultimately, Mrs Thatcher redefined Britain's sense of self and society.

Individualistic counties tend to have greater wealth divides and gaps in health and educational outcomes. Collectivist countries are not necessarily socialist and many have buoyant economies... nearly all collectivist countries had markedly different Covid responses to more individualistic nations.

In other words, if they could 'fiddle expenses' safe in the knowledge nobody would find out, how many more would be prepared to do it? I think dodgy people assume everyone is dodgy, but actually most people are not.

It is unsurprising the PM found it hard to believe anyone would follow the regulations. Judging others by his own standards.

@rrhuth

Most people are not prepared to make significant sacrifices to help people they don't know. I disagree. People make huge efforts for their communities which is a group they identify with whilst they do not know them personally.

I believe most people are decent, I myself try to be decent, and in addition I see being decent as acting in my best interests.

People may make 'huge efforts', which is not the same as significant sacrifices, if they think they are going to share in the outcome. But generally people will not make sustained sacrifices for people they do not know. Look at how many people dodge taxes, and consistently vote in governments with a low tax policy. Not just in Britain either, in case someone was going to try the 'other countries are perfect' line so popular on MN.

Saying 'most people are decent' is a bit anodyne. That's not what people are taking about here. The point is that the 'selfish' accusation gets thrown around at anyone who is in any way sceptical about ongoing restrictions. I highly doubt the people who do so are selfless themselves.