No new measures in England before New Year

[Jourdain11]

Has just been announced by the Health Secretary and reported across BBC etc.

iced - for example, by seeing the elderly as a community concern, by tending to live in multi generational households with low use of care homes is an oft cited example.

@Piggywaspushed

iced - for example, by seeing the elderly as a community concern, by tending to live in multi generational households with low use of care homes is an oft cited example.

It's a bit of a myth that Italians live in multi generational households. May be true in Dolmio ads, but not in real life.| Most Italians live in nuclear family units, not that different to Britain.

And your example would suggest that the elderly are seen as a family concern, not a 'community concern'.

@treeflowercat

I think Piggy has nailed it with the collectivist vs individualistic analysis.

I disagree... the "collectivist" approach is fixated on protection from Covid to the exclusion of how the rest of society. As the pandemic draws on, and the risk from Covid diminishes due to vaccines, treatments and infection based immunity,
not to mention the relative weakness of Omicron, it's becoming more obsessive and less balanced as time progresses, and has not become reconcile themselves that Covid is going nowhere, and they won't be able to hide from it forever.

Agree. And in time people will stop obsessing about collectivist approach and see vaccine / treatment and immunity are the driving us out of this.

It doesn’t fit with very negative take that many have, but hopefully this will change.

OK, can we just agree the UK is definitely an individualistic country , more so than other European countries and more in line with the US??

Trying and failing to copy across a scatter graph.

Here you go...

Re the vaccine:

I am hugely impressed by the scientists who developed it; the company that decided to offer it at cost; the NHS workers and others who have worked so hard to deliver it to everyone.

I am not at all convinced by the assertion that it was produced in England because we are a highly individualistic country (in the sense of holding the rights and needs of the individual at greater importance than the common good).

Are PPs suggesting collectivist cultures don't have vaccination programmes??

These are not god country/bad country binaries!

good country!

@cantkeepawayforever

Re the vaccine:

I am hugely impressed by the scientists who developed it; the company that decided to offer it at cost; the NHS workers and others who have worked so hard to deliver it to everyone.

I am not at all convinced by the assertion that it was produced in England because we are a highly individualistic country (in the sense of holding the rights and needs of the individual at greater importance than the common good).

Why not?

It’s a product of our society and if we are an ‘individualistic’ society then it’s a product of that.

US has similar individualistic culture and vaccine success.

Not at cost though, that is unique- and probably not to be repeated given criticism from many.

My understanding is that it was produced in Britain because of historic scientific expertise and location of pharmaceutical companies, and also partly because of luck, as other countries started vaccine development at a similar time but their approaches were less successful in trials.

None of that seems to be strongly causally linked with an individualistic approach? In fact, I would say that IME as a scientist, much 'big science' is inherently collective and collaborative.

@Piggywaspushed

OK, can we just agree the UK is definitely an individualistic country , more so than other European countries and more in line with the US??

Trying and failing to copy across a scatter graph.

Yes, I agree that Anglophone countries cluster at the high end of the 'Individualism' spectrum.

What I don't agree on is your theory that 'collectivism' is necessarily correlated with 'egalitarianism', or that pandemic responses can be simply explained in terms of how 'individualist' a country supposedly is.

Hence my reference to Australia. Culturally not that different from Britain, and scoring even higher on the 'individualism' scale. But very different in terms of climate, geography, location and so on. That explains their pandemic response. Not some banal theory about 'collectivism' or 'individualism'.

Correlation is not causation - I can see countries from across piggy's scatter plot that have also been very successful in vaccination development (China, India, Germany).

To claim that the two are causally related seems to me to be on extremely shaky footing, as counter-examples are so obvious.

much 'big science' is inherently collective and collaborative agree

Not some banal theory about 'collectivism' or 'individualism' at 'banal'

My understanding is that it was produced in Britain because of historic scientific expertise and location of pharmaceutical companies, and also partly because of luck, as other countries started vaccine development at a similar time but their approaches were less successful in trials.

Not because of 'luck'. Success in science is not so random.

Also, the British govt, much as they can and should be criticised for many things, invested massively in the development of the vaccines. That wasn't 'luck'. It was foresight.

Of course science can be collaborative and by joint effort

That doesn’t negate the environment or societal set up which encourages fast development

@MarshaBradyo

Of course science can be collaborative and by joint effort

That doesn’t negate the environment or societal set up which encourages fast development

Why are you claiming that it is specifically the individualistic nature of the UK that made it the right environment? That's the claim I don't understand?

'Boris Johnson massively invested in vaccines because we are an individualistic country'?? Not seeing the connection?

It’s easy to see things like mask wearing and other elements as part of the collectivism, some seem to admire (?). Is the idea there that collectivist countries are better off in a pandemic not sure.

Equally there are drivers in individualistic societies that mean they are in a good position to deliver on working vaccines and treatments quickly.

I think people are very positive about former and manage to be negative about latter -‘nothing to boast about’ etc

In time I reckon this will switch and we’ll appreciate the latter more in terms of getting us out of a health crisis

Right now though the idea of reducing personal risk means some still want the collectivism and emphasise that. We’re still in phase where people call others ‘selfish’ etc same sort of thing.

Not some banal theory about 'collectivism' or 'individualism'

How astonishingly rude.

I think you have to account for varying abilities to think of long term benefit (which often correlates with collectivist) and short term gain (individualistic) in the analysis too.

Long term benefit perception may allow us to act with less self interest when we can see that in the end what is of collective interest is best for us too.

Is the idea there that collectivist countries are better off in a pandemic not sure.

Lest you think I said that Marsha, I didn't.

Equally there are drivers in individualistic societies that mean they are in a good position to deliver on working vaccines and treatments quickly.

?? Can you clarify?

@swallowedAfly

I think you have to account for varying abilities to think of long term benefit (which often correlates with collectivist) and short term gain (individualistic) in the analysis too.

Long term benefit perception may allow us to act with less self interest when we can see that in the end what is of collective interest is best for us too.

Yes, that exactly.

I remember hearing an extremely interesting programme on how the nature of the NHS allowed for the fantastic and successful initiative to test a whole panoply of existing treatments against Covid extremely quickly.

Is the NHS a unique product of our individualistic country?? I'm not seeing it, myself?

It feels to me as if you have said 'Individualistic good; therefore anything that we have managed that is good = because we are individualistic'. I'm not seeing the causation that you are asserting is there?

@swallowedAfly

I think you have to account for varying abilities to think of long term benefit (which often correlates with collectivist) and short term gain (individualistic) in the analysis too.

Long term benefit perception may allow us to act with less self interest when we can see that in the end what is of collective interest is best for us too.

I don’t think so.

Even a long term focus on the collective - eg mask wearing and separating from each other, is not enough to get out of this.