Why is it acceptable to be angry with people who don’t want the vaccine?

[Wuishj]

I’ve had both. I didn’t want them initially but after looking into it more, I decided to have them and think it’s the right thing.

But I would never be angry, rude, dismissive of someone who didn’t want the vaccine. I’m finding these discussions very draining - they happen at work, among friends, on the news. Whatever happened to allowing people to decide for themselves as to whether they want to book an appointment and have a needle injected into them?

Honestly, I don’t think it’s the right thing not to have the vaccine but i am astonished at how narrow minded people are that they cannot respect the decision of other people. I think if everyone backed off from blaming other people then they might find that more people DID end up having the vaccine.

Rant over!

@Bexxe I'm glad you weren't unwell but to claim being fit and healthy is the reason for this is a bit untrue. Also fit and healthy mid 30s I was extremely unwell with covid prior to vaccination. Put on steroids had an ambulance etc and then months upon months of long covid unfortunately it's Russian roulette. They have since also found a gene which makes some people regardless of age more likely to be ill. Nobody really knows if they carry this or not!

As for what effect does it have on others....pretty significant if hospitals are cancelling vital cancer treatments and surgeries because of lack of bed. Stats show 5 times more likely to end up in ICU taking up the beds.

The vaccine aim was prevent serious illness and death and actually it has been doing pretty well at that. The reduction in not catching it in the first place was an added bonus of the vaccine.

I do think it's people's choice but it's ridiculous to state that it doesn't have an effect

@nojudgementhere

Thanks for the lesson in vaccines *@Riveted1! Working on a respiratory ward I would imagine Covid exposure levels are going to be high regardless of whether the patients are vaccinated or unvaccinated. I just found the post from @Jng1* a little irrational and hyperbolic to be honest. I can understand people feeling frustrated, angry and burnt out. Covid has been awful for everyone. If anyone is to blame for the crisis in our hospitals though it is the government and their chronic underfunding. People need to look at the bigger picture and stop directing hate towards one relatively small group. It's divisive, discriminatory and downright unkind.

No, not irrational or hyberbolic to be honest.

I really do struggle to see how people DON'T understand this.

If a respiratory doctor has 100 covid patients, then given that vaccines are not 100% effective and infection control can be imperfect then of course they are are greater risk than if they had just 25 patients?

At various points clinical papers have been shared which confirm all the following:
Vaccines reduce hospitalisations.
Vaccines reduce community transmission.
Vaccines reduce chance of catching covid in the first place,
Vaccines reduce severity of symptoms if you do catch it.
Vaccines reduce viral load of an infection.
Vaccines reduce symptom duration.

My friends' daughters are angry (and yes, tired, burnt out too...) because they have young 30-somethings (and yes, they ARE often men) in ICU who could have been avoided being there! Similarly they are now asking for jabs (too late ) and saying "I just wish someone had told me I was wrong. Why didn't anyone explain it properly to me? That this COULD happen to me? Why I NEEDED to get the jab?"

So folks, yes, I am bloody angry.
And if you should be so unlucky as to find yourself in that situation don't you dare say we didn't tell you!

@Scottishskifun the hospitals have been cancelling appointments/surgeries due to lack of beds way before COVID existed - I worked in the booking office for my local trust for 9 months and had to cancel multiple surgeries multiple times over winter because of winter bed pressures brought on by the Flu.

COVID has not changed this issue. It was there before COVID and will remain until hospitals are given more funding.

Cancer surgeries in the most were transferred to specialist hospitals ( in my case the local orthopaedic hospital that has ring fenced wards and no A&E) or to private healthcare companies like Nuffield health.

Unfortunately, as I was leaving - both local the Nuffield and local orthopaedic hospitals pulled their support of cancer patients in favour of doing paid for private treatments. COVID patients make up on average 5.7% of hospital admissions (and there is no statistic I could find that showed how many were vaccinated and how many aren’t) but even at 5.7% of bed space - unvaccinated people cannot be blamed for the poor utilisation is hospitals beds.

It is a problem that these vaccines do not stop transmission in anywhere near the required numbers for multiple reasons. We really need to stop rolling out this 'reduce transmission' line. They don't reduce it enough and we need to stop relying on vaccines to be the 'thing' that sorts this and obviously stop the vitriol to unvaccinated people.

This paper from 2015 (before we revised all science) discusses the problem with vaccines that don't stop transmission (to almost nothing)

journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

Omicron could very well have mutated from a vaccinated person. It is a very real possibility. How does that fit with the anger at unvaccinated people?

@Jng1 - Do you think cardiac specialists have the right to be angry at overweight patients then for upping their workload? Or that maybe we should all have a good old rant at people with failing livers who drink too much as they're selfishly wasting NHS resources? Why so much judgement just against the unvaccinated? It is a little irrational to be fair.

@hamstersarse

It is a problem that these vaccines do not stop transmission in anywhere near the required numbers for multiple reasons. We really need to stop rolling out this 'reduce transmission' line. They don't reduce it enough and we need to stop relying on vaccines to be the 'thing' that sorts this and obviously stop the vitriol to unvaccinated people.

This paper from 2015 (before we revised all science) discusses the problem with vaccines that don't stop transmission (to almost nothing)

journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

Omicron could very well have mutated from a vaccinated person. It is a very real possibility. How does that fit with the anger at unvaccinated people?

The vaccine does directly reduce transmission. We aren't going to "stop rolling it out" because it's true.

The fact that with the vaccine there are many more people ABLE to transmit is also key.

From that link

"Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts."

"However, when protecting all individuals is impossible, or evolution is ongoing, the use of additional transmission-blocking interventions such as improved hygiene might be essential."

Frankly the paper supports the idea that we need to get everyone vaccinated.

I don’t understand the mentality of not wanting to protect yourself to be honest. Although I wouldn’t be rude or aggressive - but then everyone is different and has different levels of involvement (retail staff for instance surely have a right to be aggrieved)
I support and would argue for personal choice in regards to health care and medical decisions to the bitter end, even though I don’t personally agree with being unvaccinated in this particular scenario.

I also don’t agree with not vaccinating your children for things like MMR. I don’t agree with not wearing your seat belt or using adequate child seats etc.

These things don’t completely stop the risk but they greatly reduce it. That’s the way I see the vaccine personally, it won’t necessarily stop me from ever getting covid but it reduces the risk of me being very ill, and that’s good enough for me.

I grew up without a parent and I would and will do everything in my power to reduce the chances of that happening to my kids.
So I eat well, look after my health, wear my seatbelt, check my boobs, have my smears etc etc.
And I can add vaccines to that list as and when it’s relevant.

I suppose I’m not angry at refusers but a bit baffled.

By the way, I’m not an anxious person at all - I am pragmatic and open to all arguments but it makes sense to me personally to reduce my risk. And by doing that I reduce others risk too I guess.

Have it, don't have it, I couldn't care less, but with your choice comes consequences, so don't moan at me if it comes back to bite you on the arse. A self employed friend of mine had to cancel her birthday night out and is now in isolation for ten days during one of her busiest trading periods because she was a close contact and is unvaccinated.

@Wuishj

Yeah that’s true hadnt thought of it like that *@frozendaisy* !

I think for me it’s this sort of idea that people who don’t want the vaccine are thick or uneducated. Leave them be! We don’t actually know if vaccines are the right or best way, not with absolute certainty. We are all doing what we think is best overall.

I think the blame game with the anti Vaxxers just makes them more entrenched in their views tbh.

I completely agree OP. I've had two jabs but I hate the vitriol aimed at those who haven't as it's their choice and there child be all kinds of reasons why. It's none of my business.

@Bexxe yes I realise that bed space was an issue before but it's definitely worse now!

A woman in Dundee has here cancer operation cancelled 3 times because she needs ICU after and that is full with covid patients. Her surgery counts as elective.

Covid patients also spend on average 2-3 times as long in ICU as previous patients before the pandemic with an average of 21 days.
Given the greater majority in ICU is unvax people then yes it is possible to conclude that non vax are causing the issue.

I don't get the hate for the unvaccinated.
I have 2 members of my wider family (who I rarely see) who are unvaccinated.
I think they are making a bad choice, but it's their choice.
Interestingly they are neither stupid nor selfish (on the whole).
One has a science PhD and is very "clever". The other is retired and worked for NHS all her life, and was sole carer for her disabled husband.

I am thankful to be vaccinated but I am vaccinated for selfish reasons (to protect myself) as are most people.

They are a risk to my health! They should be made to wear something to identify them as unvaccinated then I can avoid them.

@Fartooparanoid

They are a risk to my health! They should be made to wear something to identify them as unvaccinated then I can avoid them.

Sorry what? 😂

This can’t be a real suggestion

[quote Scottishskifun]@Bexxe yes I realise that bed space was an issue before but it's definitely worse now!

A woman in Dundee has here cancer operation cancelled 3 times because she needs ICU after and that is full with covid patients. Her surgery counts as elective.

Covid patients also spend on average 2-3 times as long in ICU as previous patients before the pandemic with an average of 21 days.
Given the greater majority in ICU is unvax people then yes it is possible to conclude that non vax are causing the issue.[/quote]
There are 10,000 people bed blocking who cannot go back into care homes

Funny that. Given we just fired 30,000+ people from the care sector for being unvaccinated. Not hysterical or moronic at all. That'll teach 'em.

@trumpisagit

I don't get the hate for the unvaccinated. I have 2 members of my wider family (who I rarely see) who are unvaccinated. I think they are making a bad choice, but it's their choice. Interestingly they are neither stupid nor selfish (on the whole). One has a science PhD and is very "clever". The other is retired and worked for NHS all her life, and was sole carer for her disabled husband.

I am thankful to be vaccinated but I am vaccinated for selfish reasons (to protect myself) as are most people.

Maybe not stupid.

Definately selfish though.

@Fartooparanoid

They are a risk to my health! They should be made to wear something to identify them as unvaccinated then I can avoid them.

Perfect username for this comment.

Reasons I’m annoyed with anti vaxxers:
Because if everyone eligible had had their vaccine we probably wouldn’t be in the mess we are now.
Because every unvaccinated person requiring hospital treatment is an entirely avoidable cost.
Because people should do things to help others and society and not be so selfish.
Because people should do proper research and not believe conspiracy nonsense on the internet.
Because all the extra pressure on the nhs risks treatment for others being cancelled or delayed.
Because extending the pandemic by not being vaccinated will affect children’s learning and time in school and it’s not fair on them.

This x 100^^

Scottishskifun Bexxe Yes, the “I don’t need to vaccinate because my immune system is strong and Covid will just be a bit of a cold” argument is in reality more like a game of Russian roulette, and the proof is in the healthy young people who have been hospitalised whilst I had Covid with absolutely no symptoms and my immune system is rubbish. I have half the minimum level of white blood cells and many people with neutropenia like me were instructed to shield. I am part of the study into why some people get mild or severe disease and they are indeed finding SNPs on your DNA that predict whether you are vulnerable www.genomicsengland.co.uk/covid-19/

So that is a very dangerous argument as it is influencing people not to get vaccinated who unknowingly are vulnerable because they have those SNPs on their DNA. The result is healthy unvaccinated people ending up in ICUs

@Fartooparanoid

They are a risk to my health! They should be made to wear something to identify them as unvaccinated then I can avoid them.

Reasons I’m annoyed with anti vaxxers:
Because if everyone eligible had had their vaccine we probably wouldn’t be in the mess we are now.
Because every unvaccinated person requiring hospital treatment is an entirely avoidable cost.
Because people should do things to help others and society and not be so selfish.
Because people should do proper research and not believe conspiracy nonsense on the internet.
Because all the extra pressure on the nhs risks treatment for others being cancelled or delayed.
Because extending the pandemic by not being vaccinated will affect children’s learning and time in school and it’s not fair on them.

All of this, times 100, 000

Member of my family has a life-limiting (and probably terminal) illness, which render the vaccine pretty useless. As they weaken, catching COVID has more & more risks, especially as they're about to undertake chemotherapy for managing a few more years of life, they are now pretty much housebound. This is an able bodied intelligent highly productive person, who now cannot work. So a loss to our economy, as well as taking away the freedom of an otherwise productive young citizen.

We just hope that the chemo will not be interrupted or delayed by the stress of treating unvaccinated COVID patients - this will mean my family member will die in the next six months, basically. Many years before they should die even with the illness.

@KaycePollard
We just hope that the chemo will not be interrupted or delayed by the stress of treating unvaccinated COVID patients

how on earth have you made the link that unvaccinated people are going to stop your family members chemo treatment?
These absolutely wildly inaccurate and completely untrue statements are why the countrys at odds with eachother.

Chemotherapy treatment is performed in specialist areas by specialist clinical teams who will not ever even chance the risk of mixing bed bases with a COVID+ patient.

You have been majorly fed some incorrect information, and are angry about things that are not a possibility.

Thank you. Again, your own source does not bear your assertion out.

You read the report wrongly - the labels are at the top of the chart, rather than the bottom.

For example, in May 2021, almost 80% of admissions to ICU were patients who were unvaccinated. For the same time period, approximately 20% had had one vaccination and approximately 1 - 2% had had two vaccinations.

For November 2021, the unvaccinated made up 50% of ICU cases, one vaccination approximately 1 - 2% and double vaccinated 50%.

To quote the report: From 1 May 2021 to date, there have been 923 inter-hospital critical care transfers of 787 patients with confirmed COVID-19, of which 574 transfers of 536 patients were classified as being for comparable critical care.

I was having this discussion with a friend who is against the vaccinations this morning. I admitted that I dont agree with the motives and reasons given against it, but ultimately I dont care enough about what choice they make to try push and pry about it. What I do judge though is when people spread misinformation and refer to the vaccines as "poisons" and people having them as "sheeple". Facebook anti vaxers don't do themselves any favours as they just spout nonsensical drivel.

My friends reason for not having them is just simply that she doesn't believe they work. I don't agree with her, but as long as she isnt going round shouting this misinformation from rooftops then it doesn't particularly bother or offend me.

[quote Jng1]@Bexxe
Can anyone actually tell me how me not having the vaccine directl effects anyone else?

Yes, and lots of posters have already patiently explained this on this and numerous other threads. But if you choose to listen with your ears closed we probably can't help you...[/quote]
Thank you @Jng1. Perfectly put

If all adults had the vaccine then dc wouldn't have to.
How selfish to make young dc have a vaccine because adults won't take responsibility.