Why is it acceptable to be angry with people who don’t want the vaccine?

[Wuishj]

I’ve had both. I didn’t want them initially but after looking into it more, I decided to have them and think it’s the right thing.

But I would never be angry, rude, dismissive of someone who didn’t want the vaccine. I’m finding these discussions very draining - they happen at work, among friends, on the news. Whatever happened to allowing people to decide for themselves as to whether they want to book an appointment and have a needle injected into them?

Honestly, I don’t think it’s the right thing not to have the vaccine but i am astonished at how narrow minded people are that they cannot respect the decision of other people. I think if everyone backed off from blaming other people then they might find that more people DID end up having the vaccine.

Rant over!

[quote nojudgementhere]@Nextlevelnonsense - I liked your post and agreed with much of it. I wish everybody would just focus on what they're doing & stop listening to the papers who seem to be permanently trying to whip everybody up into a frenzy of bitterness and hatred. Vaccination status does not determine if you are a good or evil person but unfortunately that seems to be what they're trying to promote and what gullible people seem only too happy to believe. We need more understanding, kindness and tolerance if we want a world that's worth living in.[/quote]
@paranoidnamechanger. Agree with you. I think at least, when engaged a discussion, @Nextlevelnonsense's posts are calm, polite and logical. Unlike many in this thread calling people who disagree with them "cxxt' "criminal","fxxking.." and to "shut up". So much anger and it is almost sad to see.

@LifeIsWhat I haven't seen any posts claiming anything of you sort?

@Nextlevelnonsense is claiming that it is not safer for adults to be vaccinated than not vaccinated (amongst many other things that are not true). This is misinformation, going against guidance from all public health bodies globally.

They also keep claiming that vaccinated people are angry because they've been vaccinated and regret doing harm to their bodies

I have no issue with someone choosing to not be vaccinated, but I do have issues with propogating things aiming to discourage vaccination during a pandemic.

[quote riveted1]**@LifeIsWhat I haven't seen any posts claiming anything of you sort?

@Nextlevelnonsense is claiming that it is not safer for adults to be vaccinated than not vaccinated (amongst many other things that are not true). This is misinformation, going against guidance from all public health bodies globally.

They also keep claiming that vaccinated people are angry because they've been vaccinated and regret doing harm to their bodies

I have no issue with someone choosing to not be vaccinated, but I do have issues with propogating things aiming to discourage vaccination during a pandemic.[/quote]
I agree. @LifeIsWhat, can you please share posts where people have said "cxxt' "criminal","fxxking.." and to "shut up". Thank you.

[quote AlfonsoTheUnrepentant]@hamstersarse, sorry but the ICNARC report proves nothing. It is titled: ICNARC report on COVID-19 in critcal care: Northern Ireland
10 December 2021 and discusses demographics, treatment and outcomes.

On both cases, your posts have failed to prove your point.[/quote]
It is for England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Go to the link www.icnarc.org/Our-Audit/Audits/Cmp/Reports top right it says 'related files' and the top one is the most recent report

See page 46

The unvaccinated are not taking up most of the ICU beds. They are taking up some, as are the vaccinated.

If someone doesn't want the vaccine for their own reasons then I (sort of) respect that. However once they start spouting forth what those reasons are and trying to justify them, I simply cannot sit by and stay silent if I fundamentally believe they are factually incorrect.
I believe in debate and correcting misinformation, or at least offering an alternative point of view, with what I consider to be relevant evidence.

My friend has two daughters who work in respiratory wards. She is angry because the unvaccinated are putting her daughters' lives at risk every day.
Seems pretty understandable to me.

@AlfonsoTheUnrepentant

I'm sorry, *@Frymetothemoon*. This all sounds very difficult and I hope 2022 is better.

Thank you for your kindness

Can anyone actually tell me how me not having the vaccine directl effects anyone else?

I can catch COVID without a vaccine - so can people with the vaccination. The difference being I may become seriously ill. But you should be fine if your vaccinated.

I have had COVID twice, and have been fine both times. Haven't so much as called my GP - i haven't ended up in ICU, because i am otherwise fit and healthy with no pre-existing medical conditions. I have weighed it up and my immune system is clearly capable of coping with this virus without having to have the vaccine.
As an ex hospital worker who worked within the incident room inside my hospital, who reported COVID figures to the Government as a job - i can confirm there is no seperation in reporting figures of those who came into hospital because of COVID and those who caught COVID whilst in hospital.
At the start of the pandemic, this was the same with COVID reported deaths. Even if a terminally ill cancer patient died but happened to catch COVID they would be reported as a COVID death.
I don't believe the statistics, because for a year i had to report them incorrectly - so i know they are bullshit.

I can spread COVID without a vaccine - so can people with the vaccination - circling back to my first point, the un-vaccinated by choice may get sicker, but if the vaccination works and does its job, the vaccinated should be fine.

I see so many people say the unvaccinated are selfish, are delaying the end of pandemic, are directly effecting those around them

So my question is - how exactly am i directly effecting those around me who are vaccinated if the vaccine is doing it's job?

The actual issue, is that the vaccine is not doing what the Government hoped it would - so the deflection is on to those who don't have it.

What would happen if everyone in the UK had the vaccine? The virus won't dissapear, because we can all still catch it and transmit it.

So what is the point? To people like me, who are concious of what is being put in my body, who is fit and healthy, who has natural immunity, who are nervous to trust private companies making the vaccine - why should i potentially risk injecting myself with an unknown substance that is still in the 'emergency use laws' meaning they an roll it out without the long term effects being questioned.

The thing is, the scientific evidence to back up what i am saying is out there, but is ignored by those who want to class it as 'conspiracy theories' - but the scientific evidence that back's up their opinion is solid scientific evidence.

It unfortunately won't ever end, its the same as everything. Unless you are happy that other's can have a different opinion to you, then those who don't agree with you are lesser, and actually quoted above to apprently have a lesser IQ.

I am fine being called thick, selfish, and whatever else people can throw at me - because i know what i say is valid

To add - I am not anti-vaxx, with the correct research and undertsanding of effectiveness i think they are excellent at keeping people safe.

I am anti-this-vaxx, for now. I hink, like the flu jab, we will eventually get there on one that is effective in its purpose.

Until then, I won't have it because I can't weigh it up as justified in my personal opinion in my case.

The media have done well in their job to blame the un-vaccinated instead of looking to those in charge for spending billions on a vaccine that has not proved as effective as hoped.

@Wuishj

Yeah that’s true hadnt thought of it like that *@frozendaisy* !

I think for me it’s this sort of idea that people who don’t want the vaccine are thick or uneducated. Leave them be! We don’t actually know if vaccines are the right or best way, not with absolute certainty. We are all doing what we think is best overall.

I think the blame game with the anti Vaxxers just makes them more entrenched in their views tbh.

Hi Wuishj, can I ask you a couple of questions about points you've made?

1. We don’t actually know if vaccines are the right or best way, not with absolute certainty Why do you say this/ what makes you think this? Existing vaccination campaigns (polio, smallpox, measles, scarlet fever, whooping cough) prove beyond doubt that vaccination of populations reduce disease outbreaks.

2. this sort of idea that people who don’t want the vaccine are thick or uneducated I would agree that insults don't work, but a proportion of people who don't want the vaccination are uneducated, in the sense that they have got misinformation from somewhere and believe that, rather than correct information. It certainly doesn't mean that they are thick. What do you think should happen for these people? Should people give up on them and they get gradually edged out of social activities? Or should the government/their families/friends/wider society continue to make an effort to accept the correct information?

I am anti-this-vaxx, for now. I hink, like the flu jab, we will eventually get there on one that is effective in its purpose.

It's funny you say that, the coronavirus vaccines are comparable to 'flu in terms of efficacy.

If 'flu was a novel virus (ie the population had little to no preexisting immunity from lifelong exposure) and we were in a 'flu pandemic, they would also be recommending boosters for the general population.

@Bexxe

My local hospital had to close its A&E yesterday due to the numbers of covid admissions (most unvaccinated). Those who don’t get vaccinated impact directly on the services available to others

@Bexxe

To add - I am not anti-vaxx, with the correct research and undertsanding of effectiveness i think they are excellent at keeping people safe.

I am anti-this-vaxx, for now. I hink, like the flu jab, we will eventually get there on one that is effective in its purpose.

Until then, I won't have it because I can't weigh it up as justified in my personal opinion in my case.

The media have done well in their job to blame the un-vaccinated instead of looking to those in charge for spending billions on a vaccine that has not proved as effective as hoped.

This idea that the vaccine is not effective is just - to be blunt - fucking stupid.

The vaccine significantly reduces the chances of people getting ill. It reduces the length of time people are ill and contagious. It reduces the possibility of passing COVID onto someone else.

The reason you have enjoyed a summer of being back almost completely to normal is due to other people getting off their arses and getting jabbed.

@Bexxe
Can anyone actually tell me how me not having the vaccine directl effects anyone else?

Yes, and lots of posters have already patiently explained this on this and numerous other threads. But if you choose to listen with your ears closed we probably can't help you...

[quote Jng1]**@Bexxe
Can anyone actually tell me how me not having the vaccine directl effects anyone else?

Yes, and lots of posters have already patiently explained this on this and numerous other threads. But if you choose to listen with your ears closed we probably can't help you...[/quote]
Yes, @Bexxe, you may not be worried about coronavirus (neither am I from a personal point of getting infected as lucky enough to be low risk) but the implications of another wave of infection will of course impact you.

Vaccination reduces infection, transmission, severe illness, mortality & long term complications. The more people vaccinated, the lower these costs will be.

You will be unhappy if you or a loved one is able to get hospital treatment for a non-COVID emergency due to saturation of hospitals, hospitality is imapacted because too many people are sick/isolating or your children's education is disrupted.

@SusieBob - i said as effective as hoped, i didnt say it was not effective - i said its not as effective as hoped. There is a difference.
My point being, even with the entire nation being vaccinated, it doesn't go away - we will have to adjust to a new normal anyway. So what difference does it make if the majority are vaccinated (which they are) if the remainder aren't? It doesn't make a difference to those vaccinated if the vaccine is as effective as they wanted it to be,

@Jng1 I have seen lists of personal reasoning of people that dont really support my question.
For exampe (picking one at random, no offence intended to the person who posted) - Because my niece (paramedic) is going out to significantly higher numbers of suicide attempts

^ How is me being unvaccinated pushing up suicide attempts?
That is a propeosterious thing to say when you really give it some thought. I am listening, i am taking it to account other peoples (valid) opinions, but i am weighing up the potential issues for my future health, my future childrens health and chosing a decision what i feel is best for me, which is what this choice should always be about - in no other world would we be expected to choose other peoples opinions over own, and people for some reason cannot accept that in this instance.

As stated, im not an anti-vax conspriacy theorist. And those fustrate me just as much with their pushy judgemental views to those who do make the choice to have the vaccine. I guess the point in my post is to highlight there are some people out here with geniune health concerns that outweigh the concern of having COVID for varying reasons - mine being i have had it and i am okay. I think my own personal reasoning is fair enough.

@Jng1

My friend has two daughters who work in respiratory wards. She is angry because the unvaccinated are putting her daughters' lives at risk every day. Seems pretty understandable to me.

How are the unvaccinated putting her daughters' lives at risk? Could they not have a vaccine to protect themselves or is she concerned that their vaccines won't work?

Could they not have a vaccine to protect themselves or is she concerned that their vaccines won't work?

I don't think you understand how vaccination works @nojudgementhere?

No vaccines have 100% efficacy. We rely on a decent level of population level immunity, alongside partial protection from being vaccinated yourself.

If you're working on CV you're likely at high level of exposures day in and day out, vaccination will offer protection, but the more people vaccinated, the lower your own personal risk will be. HTH.

[quote Bexxe]**@SusieBob* - i said as* effective as hoped, i didnt say it was not effective - i said its not as effective as hoped. There is a difference.
My point being, even with the entire nation being vaccinated, it doesn't go away - we will have to adjust to a new normal anyway. So what difference does it make if the majority are vaccinated (which they are) if the remainder aren't? It doesn't make a difference to those vaccinated if the vaccine is as effective as they wanted it to be,

@Jng1 I have seen lists of personal reasoning of people that dont really support my question.
For exampe (picking one at random, no offence intended to the person who posted) - Because my niece (paramedic) is going out to significantly higher numbers of suicide attempts

^ How is me being unvaccinated pushing up suicide attempts?
That is a propeosterious thing to say when you really give it some thought. I am listening, i am taking it to account other peoples (valid) opinions, but i am weighing up the potential issues for my future health, my future childrens health and chosing a decision what i feel is best for me, which is what this choice should always be about - in no other world would we be expected to choose other peoples opinions over own, and people for some reason cannot accept that in this instance.

As stated, im not an anti-vax conspriacy theorist. And those fustrate me just as much with their pushy judgemental views to those who do make the choice to have the vaccine. I guess the point in my post is to highlight there are some people out here with geniune health concerns that outweigh the concern of having COVID for varying reasons - mine being i have had it and i am okay. I think my own personal reasoning is fair enough.[/quote]
As effective as who hoped?

Vaccines by their nature are never 100% effective so if you are hanging on waiting for that you are never going to have one.

If everyone in the country had the vaccine then yes, it would make a difference as there is a far greater mass resistence to infection, illness and transmission. This is not complicated.

It boggles my mind that people can still come out with this guff. Just look at where we are now compared to last year and try to argue that the vaccine rollout hasn't been a success.

@riveted1 I hear what you are saying, and to protect the NHS is one very valid reason to be vaccinated i do agree.

However, the latest data shows COVID admissions amount on average for 5.7 /100,000 admissions.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/hospitals

The reasons for NHS failing go far deeper than COVID, and issues have been there for many years - this has given the hospitals a good scape goat for the systematic failings.

[quote Bexxe]@riveted1 I hear what you are saying, and to protect the NHS is one very valid reason to be vaccinated i do agree.

However, the latest data shows COVID admissions amount on average for 5.7 /100,000 admissions.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/hospitals

The reasons for NHS failing go far deeper than COVID, and issues have been there for many years - this has given the hospitals a good scape goat for the systematic failings.[/quote]
In none of my post did I say "protect the NHS". I think that was terrible messaging by the gov tbh. Any healthcare system, no matter how good (see Germany), will struggling with the consequences of an uncontrolled pandemic.

This was my reply to you @Bexxe.. You seem to have ignored most of it !

Yes, @Bexxe, you may not be worried about coronavirus (neither am I from a personal point of getting infected as lucky enough to be low risk) but the implications of another wave of infection will of course impact you.

Vaccination reduces infection, transmission, severe illness, mortality & long term complications. The more people vaccinated, the lower these costs will be.

You will be unhappy if you or a loved one is able to get hospital treatment for a non-COVID emergency due to saturation of hospitals, hospitality is imapacted because too many people are sick/isolating or your children's education is disrupted.

Thanks for the lesson in vaccines @Riveted1! Working on a respiratory ward I would imagine Covid exposure levels are going to be high regardless of whether the patients are vaccinated or unvaccinated. I just found the post from @Jng1 a little irrational and hyperbolic to be honest. I can understand people feeling frustrated, angry and burnt out. Covid has been awful for everyone. If anyone is to blame for the crisis in our hospitals though it is the government and their chronic underfunding. People need to look at the bigger picture and stop directing hate towards one relatively small group. It's divisive, discriminatory and downright unkind.

It is lawful to be angry with anyone you want within the limits of the law. I understand both sides on all this.

I am happy for the NHS not to reat me as I am unvaccinated and also not to treat anyone over weight (50% of the UK) or those who drink alcohol too. it is a consistent fair positon but we have not reached that yet. I would like a £500,000 tax refund if possible too however.