If you dare to question science you are labelled uneducated?

[Clovesinmyorange]

As the title states.

I’m finding myself getting more and more angry at this attitude.
It’s the current ‘trend’ if you will, that if you dare to question science you are stupid or uneducated. Having some reservations about things, means you are completely wrong and an imbecile.

The worst thing to do in this situation is to tell ‘anti vaxxers’ or people who are hesitant about the vaccine that they are wrong or stupid. This will backfire greatly and it’s certainly not a way of winning them over. This exact thing happened with Brexit too…which is why we are where we are with that.

It’s usually left wing guardian readers (yes I read the guardian) but the same people who are usually very vocal about how supportive they are of other peoples ethics, beliefs and backgrounds.

XenoBitch

I am a severe needlephobe.. and have been called uneducated, thick, anti-vaxxer etc. My reason for not being vaccinated is nothing to do with any social media video, or any other narrative.

I am fed up with all the name calling tbh. Name calling does not change minds“

That’s an entirely different issue, though. Having a condition doesn’t mean that you’re questioning the science of vaccines.

@DarknessAndLight

It depends on how facts and data are presented. Science has told us that the vaccines can cause some adverse effects and deaths. (Yellow card scheme) Science has told us that the vaccines efficacy wanes. (Studies in Lancet and BMJ) Science has told us that the vaccinated can still get covid and can still transmit the virus (lancet) Science tells us that those recovered from covid have natural immunity and vaccinations may have adverse effects for those (lancet) Anti vaxxers have based their decision on science. People will hate what I’ve written but it’s not wrong.

People will hate what I’ve written but it’s not wrong.

Hate is a strange word for it - your post frustates me because it's disengeous @DarknessAndLight. Every point is hinting that the general population should not be vaccinated, however when you put the statements in context this is not the case. It's a deliberate misinterpretation of scientific research that is deeply frustrating.

Science has told us that the vaccines can cause some adverse effects and deaths.(Yellow card scheme)
The yellow card data can not be used to infer causality. Happy to discuss further but have posted on this many times and am boring even myself

Science has told us that the vaccines efficacy wanes. (Studies in Lancet and BMJ)
Yes - but this isn't a reason not to get vacccinated. Having a level of immunity whilst cases are so high translates into significant population level benefits.

Science has told us that the vaccinated can still get covid and can still transmit the virus (lancet)
Infection and tranmission is substantially reduced - again this translates into significant population level benefits.

Science tells us that those recovered from covid have natural immunity and vaccinations may have adverse effects for those (lancet)
"Science" also demonstrates robust benefits in being vaccinated after infection. All interventions carry risks, careful evaluation demonstrates that being vaccinated (even post infection), is less risky that not being vaccinated.

Your ignorance is not the same as an educated person's knowledge.

Should medical guidance come from a) someone who has dedicated their life to learning about virology, or b) Dave from YouTube?

Should international economic guidance come from a) economists, trade specialists, diplomats, people with practical experience or b) Nigel who is on Reddit because YouTube kicked him off?

@ollyollyoxenfree this is why I said it depends on how it’s presented. Or what bias is validated.
You can’t just say “Trust the science” and expect everyone to understand the same message.

I wish people would not conflate being science-sceptical with being pro Brexit.

Science is a rigorous way of thinking, using logical thought and mathematics. If you want to disagree with a scientific finding, you have to disprove it using the same tools. You cannot wish it away. If you disagree with virologists and epidemiologists about Covid and vaccines, I can say with a high degree of confidence (99%++) that you are wrong.

If on the other hand you have a particular view on Brexit, it is just a view. I cannot prove you right or wrong. Economists use some of the same tools as scientists, but that does not make economics a science, or economists any good at forecasting very much at all. They are not really ‘experts’ in any real sense of the word.

@Marynotsocontrary

Sorry, Beachcomber, I misunderstood what you were saying.

No need to apologise I was rather cryptic!

Thank you though.

It seems more and more to me that if you dare to question anything at all you are uneducated.

@DarknessAndLight your post is an excellent example of what we are discussing. It must be really frustrating for you and your ilk that the death rate has plunged since vaccination against COVID became possible. So hard to explain away.

@ollyollyoxenfree

Of course the Yellow Card scheme or VAERS cannot prove causation and neither are they designed to do so. That's not what they are for.

But they exist for a reason and we dismiss them at our peril. The issues with myocarditis and pericarditis were picked up by them. (And subsequent studies have demonstrated causation.)

[quote Porcupineintherough]@DarknessAndLight your post is an excellent example of what we are discussing. It must be really frustrating for you and your ilk that the death rate has plunged since vaccination against COVID became possible. So hard to explain away.[/quote]
Of course it is. Thats why I wrote it. It doesn’t mean I believe it. Just that ‘science’ has multiple interpretations and you can’t just judge and belittle everyone for following what they interpret.

[quote Beachcomber]@ollyollyoxenfree

Of course the Yellow Card scheme or VAERS cannot prove causation and neither are they designed to do so. That's not what they are for.

But they exist for a reason and we dismiss them at our peril. The issues with myocarditis and pericarditis were picked up by them. (And subsequent studies have demonstrated causation.)[/quote]
Exactly right: in the case of Michele Barlow where not all science was listened to
"While doctors noted her recent vaccination, and emerging knowledge about bad reactions in some patients, they persisted with a diagnosis of a gastro infection, Bolton Coroner’s Court heard.
Mr Brennand said there may have been some “sub-optimal care” and “confirmation bias” among medics in persisting with their initial wrong diagnosis. "

[quote Beachcomber]@ollyollyoxenfree

Of course the Yellow Card scheme or VAERS cannot prove causation and neither are they designed to do so. That's not what they are for.

But they exist for a reason and we dismiss them at our peril. The issues with myocarditis and pericarditis were picked up by them. (And subsequent studies have demonstrated causation.)[/quote]
As I said I have posted on this many times before.

No-one is dismissing the yellow card reporting- it is used to identify signals that need further investigation. The issue is when raw numbers are presented without the relevant context.

[quote Porcupineintherough]@DarknessAndLight your post is an excellent example of what we are discussing. It must be really frustrating for you and your ilk that the death rate has plunged since vaccination against COVID became possible. So hard to explain away.[/quote]
God I hate this sort of post.

Is this really what you think?? That people who are realistic about the limitations of covid vaccines would like people to die in order to make some sort of point?

I hope I misunderstand your post.

I agree with everything DarknessAndLight said but I also think that covid vaccines have prevented a lot of suffering and deaths. And for that I'm thankful.

It is possible and allowed to be a bit nuanced in one's thinking about complex issues you know.

Science is about questioning. It's all about disputing or confirming other people's findings and rigourously testing hypotheses so it's not unreasonable to question it. However, I'm a bit bored (as a scientist) of people spouting their opinions and yes many people are uneducated. Definitely not stupid but just not educated to a high standard in science. For a start, not all the information that is available to government advisors is yet published or available to the greater scientific community, so even highly qualified scientists could struggle to question the science if they aren't in the right circles let alone the general public! I'm highly educated in a biological field but 'uneducated' in other sciences (DHs physics knowledge goes straight over my head for example). I also think part of the problem is most scientists as a whole are very bad at communicating, especially with a lay person and media sensationalism doesn't help. This leaves people to come to their own conclusions and untruths start to spring up and fly around social media.

@FruitToast

Science is about questioning. It's all about disputing or confirming other people's findings and rigourously testing hypotheses so it's not unreasonable to question it. However, I'm a bit bored (as a scientist) of people spouting their opinions and yes many people are uneducated. Definitely not stupid but just not educated to a high standard in science. For a start, not all the information that is available to government advisors is yet published or available to the greater scientific community, so even highly qualified scientists could struggle to question the science if they aren't in the right circles let alone the general public! I'm highly educated in a biological field but 'uneducated' in other sciences (DHs physics knowledge goes straight over my head for example). I also think part of the problem is most scientists as a whole are very bad at communicating, especially with a lay person and media sensationalism doesn't help. This leaves people to come to their own conclusions and untruths start to spring up and fly around social media.

There's an extremely poor level of critical thinking in this country. That's the main issue. People seem incapable of evaluating sources or understanding that not all sources are equally reliable. People seem incapable of considering context or bias when reading things. People seem to think in a very black and white kind of way and then claim that statements are contradictory when they're not at all. For example, it's perfectly possible for Omicron to both be milder than Delta AND create a massive wave of hospitalisations, but for a lot of people, that just doesn't compute because they lack the ability to see the wider picture and understand context.

There's a pretty clear difference between someone who is informed and knowledgeable questioning a study because they think the sample size is too small and someone questioning a study because it doesn't align with what they want to be true and what they want to believe.

If on the other hand you have a particular view on Brexit, it is just a view. I cannot prove you right or wrong. Economists use some of the same tools as scientists, but that does not make economics a science, or economists any good at forecasting very much at all. They are not really ‘experts’ in any real sense of the word

Knowing nothing about Erasmus, WTO, Tariffs, Eurotom, Single Markets or Customs Unions gives someone the right to question/disbelieve those that do?

These things are not beliefs anymore than a lay person rubbishing vaccinations or thinking they know more about aircraft design than Airbus.

There is certainly an arrogance in many people, usually men, often who have degrees in the University of Life & not much else.

Well according to an anti vaxxer I know people who believe the science re COVID and vaccines are brainless morons. Obviously not said to my face but on a public non anonymous forum.
Sone of the gems she believes.
The vaccine will cause infertility.
It will give us AIDS
We will all be dead within two year.
Any COVID death is not COVID but SIDS. Pneumonia from made wearing or vaccine damage even in UK 11 year olds who aren't vaccinated..
O and she won't see me as she is worried about dirty vaccinated me shedding the poison.
So yes I will say people like that are stupid.

You are not being unreasonable as unfortunately scientists do make mistakes and have at times behaved very unethically.

@nojudgementhere like Wakefield. He definitely should have been questioned sooner.

@FruitToast

Science is about questioning. It's all about disputing or confirming other people's findings and rigourously testing hypotheses so it's not unreasonable to question it. However, I'm a bit bored (as a scientist) of people spouting their opinions and yes many people are uneducated. Definitely not stupid but just not educated to a high standard in science. For a start, not all the information that is available to government advisors is yet published or available to the greater scientific community, so even highly qualified scientists could struggle to question the science if they aren't in the right circles let alone the general public! I'm highly educated in a biological field but 'uneducated' in other sciences (DHs physics knowledge goes straight over my head for example). I also think part of the problem is most scientists as a whole are very bad at communicating, especially with a lay person and media sensationalism doesn't help. This leaves people to come to their own conclusions and untruths start to spring up and fly around social media.

This is what I agree with, in respect, to not all the public know all the information, how many times we all seen e.g. Alias, covert affairs, James bond, and see events that occur but for one reason or another the truth cannot be said, e.g. Their was an episode of the unit when x disaster had the potential to happen, and the cover story that was used was a weather storm event was used to try to protect the public, but instead half of the people we saying they did not see the evidence of the weather so instead weren't going to follow the instructions,

Exactly this. Unless you are of equivalent education, you simply can’t “do your own research”. There is a reason people study for years to draw conclusions from data.

[quote Beachcomber]@ollyollyoxenfree

Of course the Yellow Card scheme or VAERS cannot prove causation and neither are they designed to do so. That's not what they are for.

But they exist for a reason and we dismiss them at our peril. The issues with myocarditis and pericarditis were picked up by them. (And subsequent studies have demonstrated causation.)[/quote]
Let's be honest here @Beachcomber - if the yellow card scheme and it's US equivalent were giving positive news re vaccine injuries (ie close to zero) the pro vaccine brigade would be shouting about them from the rooftops and regularly citing them as proof of the vaccines' safety.

I wonder how many physicists have their science questioned by the general public ?

Questioning science as a peer, is fully accepted and expected and wholly respected

Questioning peer reviewed scientifically proven outcomes as an uneducated in that field lay person is generally scorned, as it should be. Often these folks either haven’t even taken the time to read all the available studies or learn from their mates, families, Facebook and you tube.

@CorrBlimeyGG

This exact thing happened with Brexit too…which is why we are where we are with that.

Possibly not the best example. They have been proven to be wrong or stupid.

You just proved OPs point.

In 2017 an A level student from the UK contacted NASA to let them know that they were collecting false data as he questioned it in a physics lesson. No one else had realised.
We should all question things that don’t make sense, not be passive empty vessels waiting for our next rule.