If you dare to question science you are labelled uneducated?

[Clovesinmyorange]

As the title states.

I’m finding myself getting more and more angry at this attitude.
It’s the current ‘trend’ if you will, that if you dare to question science you are stupid or uneducated. Having some reservations about things, means you are completely wrong and an imbecile.

The worst thing to do in this situation is to tell ‘anti vaxxers’ or people who are hesitant about the vaccine that they are wrong or stupid. This will backfire greatly and it’s certainly not a way of winning them over. This exact thing happened with Brexit too…which is why we are where we are with that.

It’s usually left wing guardian readers (yes I read the guardian) but the same people who are usually very vocal about how supportive they are of other peoples ethics, beliefs and backgrounds.

@HeronLanyon

Hang on though - if you are not a ‘scientist’ or virologist/medic/medical statistician etc how could you question the expert findings ? I’m none of these things and, whilst open to peer reviewed conflicting expert advice, I’m not going to question the experts. Think I must have misunderstood your post op and if so Apols.

Experts dont all agree though. But you dint hear from those ones….

Basically questioning very eminent scientists with internationally peer reviewed research papers because you saw some person on YouTube saying antivax mistruths is showing you are either uneducated or naive at best. I know anti vaxxers and they are spouting completely nonsense that's completely untrue.

And yes Brexit was stupid too whilst we are at it (and I read the guardian for complete transparency)

My perspectives are, try to understand the science or at least the basics, and try to find out more even if it's Wikipedia or a science textbooks.

In my experience some people seem to believe what they prefer rather than trying to understand, and it also seems that because a person says they saw a YouTube video, they seem to believe that rather than the official summary.

Although as a counter point, it doesn't help with conflicting official information, and also it doesn't help when previous times in history, their have been pickles made, e.g. Ddt, chemical, or other medical experiments, ect.

I'm not sure what your point is OP. Unless the person who doesn't accept what the scientists are saying understand the science then they are being stupid. What would you say to someone who doesn't accept the world is round?
An opinion or belief is one thing and something to disagree with but facts are facts.

Ok so what if you have someone actually able to read research paper and critically appraise them that says that actually vaccines are dangerous.

Are they stupid and gullible anti vaxxers?
Or are they questioning the evidence like we should?

Thé issue here is that often people who question the status quo of ‘vaccines work’ etc… are automatically assumed to be stupid.
But on the other side, lay people who are pro vaccines are just as unable to explain why vaccines are great and have to rely on second/third hand information found in newspapers. (So not that dissimilar than said anti vaxxers iyswim)

@Nonnymum

I'm not sure what your point is OP. Unless the person who doesn't accept what the scientists are saying understand the science then they are being stupid. What would you say to someone who doesn't accept the world is round? An opinion or belief is one thing and something to disagree with but facts are facts.

Unless the person who doesn't accept what the scientists are saying understand the science then they are being stupid. What would you say to someone who doesn't accept the world is round?

That will be because science is certainly nit strong enough yet to be able to say that all we know about covid and vaccines IS TRUE as surely as the Earth is round.
We have a hell of a lot more to learn and still many questions that are unanswered. Scientists are still disagreeing on some points. It’s nit as clear cut as some would like us to think.

@Clovesinmyorange

As the title states.

I’m finding myself getting more and more angry at this attitude.
It’s the current ‘trend’ if you will, that if you dare to question science you are stupid or uneducated. Having some reservations about things, means you are completely wrong and an imbecile.

The worst thing to do in this situation is to tell ‘anti vaxxers’ or people who are hesitant about the vaccine that they are wrong or stupid. This will backfire greatly and it’s certainly not a way of winning them over. This exact thing happened with Brexit too…which is why we are where we are with that.

It’s usually left wing guardian readers (yes I read the guardian) but the same people who are usually very vocal about how supportive they are of other peoples ethics, beliefs and backgrounds.

Science is there to be questioned and should stand up to scrutiny. Without you saying exactly what you disagree with it's hard to comment further.

The issue is you get people wading into an area they have no background in, don't understand it properly, and then use this to make wildly inaccurate statements. There's been a huge amount of this regarding the technology of mRNA/cDNA vaccines for example.

If something doesn't make sense to a non-scientist, it is likely this is due to their lack of knowledge rather than all scientists are either 1) making a massive mistake no-one picked on, 2) or taking part in a conspiracy.

And a lack of knowledge =/= stupidity or any of the other things you said @Clovesinmyorange.

Immunology/virology/genetics is complex, the people that are experts are so because they've been in the privileged position of learning about these subjects for 10+ years.

But there comes to a certain point where you have to accept if you're not an expert, and you're disagreeing with 99% of experts, you're probably wrong.

Everyone has the right to their own opinions, but not their own facts. A crucial distinction.

@EmmaOvary

Everyone has the right to their own opinions, but not their own facts. A crucial distinction.

But then one of the problems is when some people start to believe more in other people's opinions rather than the actual science.

@Hawkins001 quite.

YANBU in asserting that the way to change people’s minds is not to call them thick. And I agree that is exactly what happened in the Brexit debate. It seems in the last few years that it has become acceptable to be a complete arsehole to and about anyone who doesn’t immediately agree with you.

If people don’t have the facts, then the way forward is to present them respectfully and politely - not to call them thick.

I am in favour of the vaccine and I think it would be great if more people had it for a variety of reasons.
However, as a left wing Guardian reader, I don't really see it as my job to win the vaccine hesitant over, as such. I don't believe in calling people stupid, people have assorted talents, but I do shudder when people think that watching a video on YouTube is doing research.

Science should be questioned of course but I would put a lot more weight on, say Chris Whitty suddenly saying "don't have a booster!" than if someone on social media whose best friend is a doctor is saying "don't have the booster!". Respect in science is earned and all opinions are not equal.

Science questions itself all the time. That's how our learning and knowledge is constantly improved.

[quote OnlyAFleshWound]@Hoppinggreen

u agree it’s not fair you have been lumped in with the Bill Gates is injecting us with trackers brigade but the blame for that mostly lies with them rather than scientists or people who believe, you know, proven facts

Don't worry. That particular poster comes up with a different reason to not get vaccinated every day of the week.[/quote]
That feels unfair to me. I've only seen consistency in her posts.
@XenoBitch sorry to be talking "about" you.

It’s also things like “covid is a mild illness for most people”. Is that a scientific fact? Can you base your opinion on it?

You're right that calling people stupid is not the way to win them over. But both brexit and anti-vaxx are both objectively stupid things to support.

I guess the answer lies in doing the work to understand why people's life experiences lead them to want to opt for those particular simple answers to complex questions, and doing the legwork of patiently explaining the actual facts over and over in the hope that the penny might drop some time.

That feels unfair to me. I've only seen consistency in her posts
@XenoBitch sorry to be talking "about" you

@Fendidntdrake

Thanks. That comment did baffle me.

@EnidFrighten good luck with that, I honestly don't think those people can be shifted and the only way to do it is
1 to ensure they don't get a platform to spread their views
2 make sure that their life is slightly less convenient eg additional pcr tests to access luxuries, travel, and strict self isolation rather than daily testing for people who actively choose not to vaccinate and don't have some valid reason like needle phobia or health issues

@ApplesinmyPocket

Science questions itself all the time. That's how our learning and knowledge is constantly improved.

Which is useful for advancement and understanding, however some people prefer to just believe x because they've seen a couple of YouTube videos or they heard of certain theories and believe those more.

[quote OnlyAFleshWound]@Hoppinggreen

u agree it’s not fair you have been lumped in with the Bill Gates is injecting us with trackers brigade but the blame for that mostly lies with them rather than scientists or people who believe, you know, proven facts

Don't worry. That particular poster comes up with a different reason to not get vaccinated every day of the week.[/quote]
That poster does not.

Anyone who has read a handful of vaccination threads and pays attention to usernames knows Xeno has repeatedly stated a severe needle phobia as her reason for not being vaccinated.

Science is not a belief.

A few thoughts here.

Scientists don't always agree on things. Take the independent sage people who have very different conclusions compared to most of the mainstream scientists. Isn't it reasonable to question how two sets of people can come to different conclusions from one set of data and to understand their different biases and motivations?

We also have the right - and duty - to question whether the findings are a good idea.

Take the idea of lockdowns. From an epidemiology perspective, I'm on board with the idea that they will quash covid.

But the problem is that the proponents of restrictions and lockdowns never tell us about the impact of these on people's salaries, their children's long term educational prospects, the impact on people's mental health and relationships.

So yeah, there is a lot they can learn from us uneducated people.

[quote OnlyAFleshWound]@SickAndTiredAgain

Anyone who has read a handful of vaccination threads and pays attention to usernames knows Xeno has repeatedly stated a severe needle phobia as her reason for not being vaccinated.

As one among several reasons, which change depending on the nature of the thread.[/quote]
Like what?
I only ever say about my needle/medical phobia? What other reasons are you claiming I talk about?
It is not relevant to this thread anyway... other than you trying to somehow smear my name. Why?