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Original poster

If you dare to question science you are labelled uneducated?

214 replies

Clovesinmyorange · 11/12/2021 18:31

As the title states.

I’m finding myself getting more and more angry at this attitude.
It’s the current ‘trend’ if you will, that if you dare to question science you are stupid or uneducated. Having some reservations about things, means you are completely wrong and an imbecile.

The worst thing to do in this situation is to tell ‘anti vaxxers’ or people who are hesitant about the vaccine that they are wrong or stupid. This will backfire greatly and it’s certainly not a way of winning them over. This exact thing happened with Brexit too…which is why we are where we are with that.

It’s usually left wing guardian readers (yes I read the guardian) but the same people who are usually very vocal about how supportive they are of other peoples ethics, beliefs and backgrounds.

OP posts:
containsnuts · 12/12/2021 07:43

There's no such thing as a general 'scientist' who knows everything.

Tabbacus · 12/12/2021 07:45

There's questioning science, and then there's believing shite posted on social media and citing it as fact/science or whatever. As it goes those who choose not to have the jab that's their choice, what I hate is those who decide that but then decided to spread mistruths and repost stuff that has no actual evidence or data attached to it.

CrunchyCarrot · 12/12/2021 09:13

Scientists argue about 'science' all the time! It's normal. I would be very worried if they all suddenly started agreeing with each other. During this time of a pandemic with an emerging virus, of course there will be loads of data coming out, and this is debated as it should be., as not all of it is good quality. Then we have the media grabbing various bits and turning it into sensationalist headlines, regardless of whether the data is solid or not.

I regularly listen to TWiV - This Week in Virology - where virologists/immunologists talk about the latest findings, not only for SARS-COV-2 but other viruses as well. For anyone who's interested, this is the latest one concerning Omicron, they discuss a pre-print article and a press release from Pfizer (the discussion gets quite lively for the latter!), then a study in Bangladesh re mask wearing::

www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-841/

These virologists say it will be months before we know what we need to know about Omicron, not a couple of weeks as has been claimed by some of the press! There are no easy, quick answers.

flipflop76 · 12/12/2021 09:21

@Clovesinmyorange

As the title states.

I’m finding myself getting more and more angry at this attitude.
It’s the current ‘trend’ if you will, that if you dare to question science you are stupid or uneducated. Having some reservations about things, means you are completely wrong and an imbecile.

The worst thing to do in this situation is to tell ‘anti vaxxers’ or people who are hesitant about the vaccine that they are wrong or stupid. This will backfire greatly and it’s certainly not a way of winning them over. This exact thing happened with Brexit too…which is why we are where we are with that.

It’s usually left wing guardian readers (yes I read the guardian) but the same people who are usually very vocal about how supportive they are of other peoples ethics, beliefs and backgrounds.

I completely agree with you OP.
TheNoonBell · 12/12/2021 09:34

If anyone calls you stupid for not following science, then feel free to educate them on the scientific method.

Questioning science is the basis of science, only someone really stupid would think otherwise.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

milkyaqua · 12/12/2021 09:40

These virologists say it will be months before we know what we need to know about Omicron, not a couple of weeks as has been claimed by some of the press! There are no easy, quick answers.

The press have not been 'making claims', they have been quoting other virologists.

CrunchyCarrot · 12/12/2021 09:52

The press have not been 'making claims', they have been quoting other virologists.

Yep, quoting other virologists that have a more exciting headline-worthy take on things. Not necessarily the accurate view, though.

CrunchyCarrot · 12/12/2021 09:57

Oh and @milkyaqua, clearly you didn't listen to the link I posted or you might think again!

TooManyPlatesInMotion · 12/12/2021 10:03

"the science" is not a monolithic, settled thing. It is shifting all the time. So from one perspective, of course it should be questioned when new evidence and data comes to light.

milkyaqua · 12/12/2021 10:11

I clicked on your link and clicked off. I have no desire to listen to podcasts. I see nothing 'headline worthy' or 'exciting' about saying we should know more (not everything, but enough to make an educated projection) about Omnicron in the next few weeks, but YMMV.

milkyaqua · 12/12/2021 10:12

*Omicron

Porcupineintherough · 12/12/2021 10:15

There's questioning and questioning though isnt there? Lots of people challenging the science aren't actually challenging it with anything more than ignorance, bias and a total refusal to take certain facts on board. Most anti vaxxers are not using scientific method to question anything and are certainly not applying scientific methodology to their adoption of whatever their latest miracle "cure" for COVID is.

CrunchyCarrot · 12/12/2021 10:23

I clicked on your link and clicked off. I have no desire to listen to podcasts.

Can I ask why?

FinallyHere · 12/12/2021 10:28

Oh, please.

If you don't believe PPs, it might be worth reading up on scientific method ..

containsnuts · 12/12/2021 10:33

Just to note that a lot of the predictions and models are not made by virologist they are made by mathematicians. It's a multidisciplinary effort.

milkyaqua · 12/12/2021 10:51

@CrunchyCarrot

I clicked on your link and clicked off. I have no desire to listen to podcasts.

Can I ask why?

I prefer to read rather than listen to things.
CrunchyCarrot · 12/12/2021 11:01

I prefer to read rather than listen to things.

Fair enough! We're all different. Smile

Beachcomber · 12/12/2021 11:17

Yesterday I was told off on a thread for "demanding certainty" from The Science.

Today it's not OK to question The Science.

Marynotsocontrary · 12/12/2021 11:38

The scientific position changes as new information is found, Beachcomber. All you can get is the best hypothesis at any point in time. Demanding certainly is pointless.

Beachcomber · 12/12/2021 12:19

Exactly Marynotsocontrary.

Sorry my point probably wasn't very clear but it was exactly what you say. That science evolves over time.

I wasn't demanding certainty from science on the other thread (no reason for you to know this if you weren't on the thread in question). Rather I was saying that the general consensus on things like vaccine effectiveness is changing so it seems legitimate to me for lay people to question the science of the day. And they don't have to be experts in virology / epidemiology / etc to do so.

This thread seems to be about how lay people don't have the right to question the science without being experts in vaccinolgy / epidemiology / etc.

So there is a contradiction.

s1h2o3na · 12/12/2021 12:21

i am glad some people are commenting about the fact that the "science" isn't a set in stone ,unchallengeable "fact". The facts change all the time...there are treatments that I trained to do in healthcare at uni that are no longer in use now because the "science" behind those treatments is no longer valid. Same with many drugs that have been in regular use that then become withdrawn ,sometimes because the consequences of adverse events later outweighs the benefits of giving the drug. Look at the change in attitudes to HRT ... a now discredited study in the 90's highlighting breast cancer risk meant for many years women have been put off taking it ,now the "science" has changed. Most of us aren't going to be able to interpret scientific papers but for most of us currently we have to trust in what the JVCI etc says ...but no one can state that a couple of years down the line the "science" will not have changed yet again.

CherryBlossomAutumn · 12/12/2021 12:33

@Tabbacus

There's questioning science, and then there's believing shite posted on social media and citing it as fact/science or whatever. As it goes those who choose not to have the jab that's their choice, what I hate is those who decide that but then decided to spread mistruths and repost stuff that has no actual evidence or data attached to it.
Totally agree with this. (As a scientist)!

Also, although there are debates, some things emerge as ‘truths’.

Like the earth is round.

Covid is airborne - masks help, ventilation helps, vaccines help, contact tracing helps.

The modeling, and anything else is more debatable. But the fact that you get Covid from sitting indoors with someone is not debatable.

Beachcomber · 12/12/2021 12:36

Yes. And there are many different ways of questioning not only the science but also what science gets done in the first place. And how that science is communicated to the public by politicians and the press to the general public.

And I think most people can tell the difference between questions that aren't plausible from people who hold fringe views (are there microchips in vaccines?) and genuine plausible questions from regular middle of the road people (should my 5 year old get a covid vaccine?).

Marynotsocontrary · 12/12/2021 13:00

Sorry, Beachcomber, I misunderstood what you were saying.

DarknessAndLight · 12/12/2021 13:07

It depends on how facts and data are presented.
Science has told us that the vaccines can cause some adverse effects and deaths. (Yellow card scheme)
Science has told us that the vaccines efficacy wanes. (Studies in Lancet and BMJ)
Science has told us that the vaccinated can still get covid and can still transmit the virus (lancet)
Science tells us that those recovered from covid have natural immunity and vaccinations may have adverse effects for those (lancet)
Anti vaxxers have based their decision on science.
People will hate what I’ve written but it’s not wrong.