Austrian Vaccine Mandate (new details)

[Battenburg77]

Some new details about the vaccine mandate in Austria have emerged today.

Repeated fines of €2000. Non payment of the fines to result in jail time. 4 weeks at first but maximum total custodial sentence of 1 year.

The unique part is that the individual concerned will be charged for their own "stay". They will have to pay for their time in the cell and for meals.

Here's the article for anyone who would like to Google translate and read it:

exxpress.at/alle-details-zum-gesetz-gegen-impfgegner-bis-zu-einem-jahr-beugehaft/

I don't know how the Austrian government is planning to have the space in prison to make this possible, but there's a mention in the article of special buildings or floors of prisons for "vaccination opponents".

It completely undermines the principle of informed consent and that medical decisions should be made for the benefit of an individual. In its place you have the state deciding what medical treatment an individual should have based on overall public benefit. You have to have huge trust in your government to be comfortable with that principle even if you have faith in this particular vaccination (which I do). I'll be very disappointed in human rights law if it lets this stand.

By the same logic why not mandatory blood or organ donation? Doesn't necessarily do too much harm to the individual but does great good for society.

It's also a complete misuse of the criminal law. How can it be a criminal act not to consent to being injected with something.

And there will be marginal cases where it really isn't in someone's personal interest to have a vaccination but they don't quite meet the criteria for exemption (which seem to be very stringent in some countries). So, for example, having a history of anaphylaxis doesn't necessary exempt you in every country - you may just have to have the vaccine in hospital in case you have a shock. So you are required to submit to a procedure which may harm you or be criminalised.

Clearly the intent is to force people into vaccination rather than fill up prisons with unvaccinated people but I think that's an abhorrent use of law too.

*So what would make you get vaccinated? You are high risk for covid but the thought of dying of it isn't enough so what would persuade you?

You are exactly the type of person that this is aimed at, likely to clog up health systems but still refuses to make any mitigations so I am curious what would persuade someone like you that isn't already being done?*

Where have I said I am high risk for Covid?

Ausnahmen sind für Kinder und Jugendliche unter 14 Jahren, schwangere Frauen, Genesene 180 Tage nach positivem Test und Menschen, die sich aus gesundheitlichen Gründen nicht impfen lassen können, vorgesehen.

“Exemptions for children under 14, pregnant women, anyone who’s had covid within the last 180 days, and those who can’t be vaccinated for medical reasons.”

As I’ve said before, having lived in Austria for a very long time and being familiar with the way things work - anyone will be able to get a letter from their doctor declaring them exempt if they want to.

But if you prefer to believe that armed police will be forcibly injecting people or building special prisons for the unvaccinated - please, go ahead. Time will tell.

Arg, quote fail!

@luinagreine I have not said I am high risk for Covid.

@Incognito22333

I have to say that does sound quite draconian…. Still if anyone feels that strongly about not being vaccinated they are EU nationals and can go and live and work in another EU country or emigrate further afield.

Yeah, yeah... Because it's so easy to just leave your home, job and kids' school

@XenoBitch

*So what would make you get vaccinated? You are high risk for covid but the thought of dying of it isn't enough so what would persuade you?

You are exactly the type of person that this is aimed at, likely to clog up health systems but still refuses to make any mitigations so I am curious what would persuade someone like you that isn't already being done?*

Where have I said I am high risk for Covid?

You have said before on covid threads that you are overweight.

You have said before on covid threads that you are overweight

My BMI is borderline obese at the mo (depending on what day I weigh myself). The risk goes up for those of BMI of 40. I am trying to lose more weight, so I am taking action.
You also will know why I am not vaccinated. How will fining me, or putting me in prison help with that?

This is properly fucked up and if it ever happens in the UK I hope people tell the government where to shove it. I am pro vaccination but also pro choice.

The problem is, should people have the «freedom» to choose not to be vaccinated if that means they could become infected with covid and incubate a new variant that could destroy everything? Or infect other people who might die? Or even get seriously ill and cost the health service hundreds of thousands of pounds to try and save them? Why does their freedom to choose what they put in their body trump everybody else’s freedom and safety? I’m 100% behind a vaccine mandate. Some people are too selfish and too stupid to do the right thing so they need to be forced.

@XenoBitch

You have said before on covid threads that you are overweight

My BMI is borderline obese at the mo (depending on what day I weigh myself). The risk goes up for those of BMI of 40. I am trying to lose more weight, so I am taking action.
You also will know why I am not vaccinated. How will fining me, or putting me in prison help with that?

I was asking you what would help seeing as you are the type of person they are aiming this at? I didn't suggest that fining you and putting you in prison would help.

The problem in this case with informed consent is that people are “informing themselves” via social media, mumsnet, Facebook etc.

I don’t feel comfortable with mandatory vaccination, but as I say - knowing the massive grey zones in Austria regarding interpretation of rules and regulations, I don’t think we’re going to see the police state situation that everyone is feverishly imagining. I suspect the reality will be a lot more mundane.

No, you have said I am likely to clog up health care systems, and people like me are the reason why things like fines are being introduced.
Threats of fines wont do a jot to help me. It would force me into poverty and homelessness.

I hope someone can clarify this, I really hope it's false. What I thought they were doing was bad enough.

@XenoBitch

That's it just another tax on the poor, it's vile and disgusting.

I've never understood why the vaccinated are so frightened of the unvaccinated, I've had both mine and booked for third but I don't give a shiny shit if someone isn't.

@Signalstation

What's the point of imprisoning someone who will then just come out and not get the vaccination? What function does imprisonment actually serve in this case? Oh that's right - none.

I mean I'm not saying I agree but isn't the point blindingly obvious???

You'd have to be pretty bloody hardcore to want to go to prison instead of having the vaccine. It's the ultimate stick to beat people who are reluctant into having the vaccine. I'd imagine it'll be pretty effective, too.

If you have a principle that medical procedures need consent, people need to have the right to make decisions against medical advice. People make “bad” health decisions all the time. You erode that principle and you lose the right to refuse a caesarean or induction or weight loss surgery. The alternative, of the state just deciding on a blanket basis, what procedures everyone should have, is very scary even if you have no issue with this particular vaccine.

Medical exemption in the U.K. is only granted for specific circumstances, such as being terminally ill.

Are there broader medical exemptions in Austria?

I'm sure it will be amended at some point to allow the unvaccinated to be detained indefinitely. Maybe in purpose built camps like they have in Australia. Definitely nothing wrong or sinister about that hmm. Perfectly normal for a supposedly democratic country!

FFS - not this rubbish again

@CrunchyCarrot

But presumably with all your chronic health conditions, you're not dim enough to be unvaccinated?

Apparently I am. I've had Covid, though.

🤦‍♀️

I can't understand how anyone could think this was ok and believe in bodily autonomy. Either health decisions are personal or they are public. If the latter, than anything is fair game.
The only semi-coherent argument for compulsory vaccines is reducing the burden on the health system. And there are a vast number of behaviours and individuals that burden the health system more than unvaccinated twenty year olds.
So people actually think Covid is so exceptional that this shift power over individual health matters will end here?

The risk goes up for those of BMI of 40.

This is an illusion that only works in the country with a lot of obese people. In my native country, BMI of 30+ had same priority as all the other illnesses like diabetes, hypertension, and being elderly.

@rainrainraincamedowndowndown

The risk goes up for those of BMI of 40.

This is an illusion that only works in the country with a lot of obese people. In my native country, BMI of 30+ had same priority as all the other illnesses like diabetes, hypertension, and being elderly.

Priority for? The vaccine? In the UK, I am pretty sure BMI was not an indicator what what priority group you would have been in. Even if it was, a BMI of 30+ would have meant about 1/3 of the nation being in a priority group.

The link you posted from Exxpress is a well-known, right wing funded website that isn't deemed a real source of journalism in Austria. It's akin to linking to Breitbart or QAnon blogs. Many of the facts are probably exaggerated to fit their agenda.

But yes, the gist of it is that people will be given vaccine appointments starting from Feb 2022. If they miss those then they can be fined €600 in 3 increments depending on how many appointments they miss. I mentioned in a previous thread that ALL monetary fines in Austria have an equivalent of jail time for those unable or unwilling to pay. I've received parking tickets that can also be paid with "4 hours of jail time".

So putting people in jail for not getting vaccinated is not exclusive to the mandate. It's just the final option for those unwilling or unable to pay and this is the case with all fines in Austria. I always thought it was a legal quirk but another poster in the previous thread said they actually know people who have voluntarily gone to jail to avoid paying traffic fines.

To those living in Austria it's actually not as horrific as it sounds because the country has always been heavy-handed with fines and "anzeigen" (having a legal proceeding opened against you). You get fined for having a party that's too loud and the neighbours decide to call police. You get fined all the time for traffic violations, there are wardens and cameras on every street corner. You get bureaucratic fines for forgetting to submit a form within a certain time period. During the first lockdown in 2020 people were fined €300 on the spot for walking with another person in public that weren't in the same household. You need to carry ID with you at all times.

Medical mandates are also not unique. A common one is the "Mother Child Pass" which is a series of mandatory health checks throughout pregnancy, birth and 3 years post-partum. Each one needs to be done within a fixed time frame and the final completed pass sent to the authorities who process your maternity pay. If the pass is incomplete or faulty then you may be forced to pay back all the money from the state received during your maternity leave.

Yes, the vaccine. And yes, as you say, in UK, it wouldn't have worked, since so many people are overweight.
So, what I said was, in some other country, being overweight of 30+BMI is considered serious risk, similar to other serious underlying conditions. So no, risk is still there, even your BMI is under 40.

@CupcakeTowers

The link you posted from Exxpress is a well-known, right wing funded website that isn't deemed a real source of journalism in Austria. It's akin to linking to Breitbart or QAnon blogs. Many of the facts are probably exaggerated to fit their agenda.

But yes, the gist of it is that people will be given vaccine appointments starting from Feb 2022. If they miss those then they can be fined €600 in 3 increments depending on how many appointments they miss. I mentioned in a previous thread that ALL monetary fines in Austria have an equivalent of jail time for those unable or unwilling to pay. I've received parking tickets that can also be paid with "4 hours of jail time".

So putting people in jail for not getting vaccinated is not exclusive to the mandate. It's just the final option for those unwilling or unable to pay and this is the case with all fines in Austria. I always thought it was a legal quirk but another poster in the previous thread said they actually know people who have voluntarily gone to jail to avoid paying traffic fines.

To those living in Austria it's actually not as horrific as it sounds because the country has always been heavy-handed with fines and "anzeigen" (having a legal proceeding opened against you). You get fined for having a party that's too loud and the neighbours decide to call police. You get fined all the time for traffic violations, there are wardens and cameras on every street corner. You get bureaucratic fines for forgetting to submit a form within a certain time period. During the first lockdown in 2020 people were fined €300 on the spot for walking with another person in public that weren't in the same household. You need to carry ID with you at all times.

Medical mandates are also not unique. A common one is the "Mother Child Pass" which is a series of mandatory health checks throughout pregnancy, birth and 3 years post-partum. Each one needs to be done within a fixed time frame and the final completed pass sent to the authorities who process your maternity pay. If the pass is incomplete or faulty then you may be forced to pay back all the money from the state received during your maternity leave.

Thanks for this detailed information. I'd like to pin it to the top of the thread if I could. The article in Exxpress seems to have screenshots/photos of an actual parliamentary bill/document detailing the specifics that they're reporting on - is it possible that this was an earlier draft that was tabled and then rejected?