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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

What does everyone think about the banning of the unvaxxed in Germany?

600 replies

Katieandthekids · 02/12/2021 21:33

I'm just interested in opinions. I personally believe that no one should ever force anyone to put something in their body.

Just as a side: I had both vaccines during my pregnancy and still not 100% sure I've done the right thing but in balance and after lots of my research believe 99% that it is fine. Totally respect the reasons people are nervous about it though.

OP posts:
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6
gofg · 03/12/2021 09:50

@Lostinacloud - I never said we wouldn't be offered boosters, (so far only one has been mentioned), I said it isn't necessary to have a booster to get a covid pass. It is to show people have been double vaccinated (just to make sure you understand - double means two!). As I said, you have no idea what our government has decided, so maybe just keep quiet about it until you do. I also said I had just had my booster, and if I need more I couldn't care less. I have a flu vaccine every year, what's the difference?

It never fails to amaze me how people get so wound up about things happening in other countries. Confused

WeDidntMeanToGoToSea · 03/12/2021 10:10

@userperuser

i resent the insinuations of totalitarianism (and particularly the Nazi crap, of course). Germany has been publicly soul-searching for months about this, until very recently in the hope that it wouldn't come to it. The governments I have experienced in my 2 decades here have been very well aware of the weight of history and and incursions into individual freedoms are not taken lightly. But there is an increasing feeling that those exercising their choice to be unvaccinated (and, let's not forgot, often influencing others to do the same - don't you think that if totalitarianism was behind this, there would have been a crackdown on that?) are beginning to hold everyone else hostage. If y choice you make risks impacting on the wellbeing of others, then the consequence of that will be not stopping you from making the choice, but taking measures to ameliorate that risk to others' wellbeing you are posing. And that's all these measures are

Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself.

It’s not normal.

No, I am not 'trying to convince [my]self' Grin

It isn't normal to place this kind of condition on accessing public spaces, no, but neither is the current situation. Neither, these days (thank goodness and thanks largely to other vaccines), is the situation of people (who refuse to be vaccinated) posing a risk to others either directly via infection or indirectly via the taking up of extremely strained healthcare resources. You can bet there'd be a lot more than restrictions on going to concerts or restaurants for unvaccinated-by-choice people if smallpox or polio were going around.

gofg · 03/12/2021 10:11

Now we are all required to have a booster after 3 months of the last one and who knows how many more, the government have made orders for at least the next 2 years!

I was under the impression having any vaccine was a choice in the UK, so how has it suddenly become "we are all required"?

userperuser · 03/12/2021 10:15

WeDidntMeanToGoToSea

Yes laugh it off (chilling attitude unsurprisingly).

We aren’t dealing with smallpox (huge death rate) or polio.

doublemonkey · 03/12/2021 10:16

@userperuser

WeDidntMeanToGoToSea

Yes laugh it off (chilling attitude unsurprisingly).

We aren’t dealing with smallpox (huge death rate) or polio.

Funny that smallpox gets mentioned.

You heard it hear first.

doublemonkey · 03/12/2021 10:19

@userperuser

WeDidntMeanToGoToSea

Yes laugh it off (chilling attitude unsurprisingly).

We aren’t dealing with smallpox (huge death rate) or polio.

Also just to clarify, the smallpox and polio vaccines are actual vaccines.

The Covid shot is not a vaccine as we know and understand them. They are an experimental treatment. We have no idea what they do long term. That is why lots of people are reluctant to have them.

userperuser · 03/12/2021 10:23

doublemonkey

Just to clarify, I was pointing out to pp that you cannot compare those past diseases with covid.

BlueskiesAbove · 03/12/2021 10:26

@Babdoc

In Saxony, only 58% of the population is double vaccinated, due to the high proportion of anti vaxxers, conspiracy theorists and alternative medicine believers. The Germans are facing a potential meltdown in their hospitals and ICUs in the region, if they don't take drastic action to get vaccination numbers up. Insisting that people must be vaccinated if they wish to socialise is simply a common sense public health measure, not some sinister Nazi plot. The more hysterical PPs here need to get a grip.
I think maybe you " need to get a grip" if you think everyone who refuses numerous vaccines is either an " anti vaxxer or conspiracy theorist". These tired labels get branded around in an effort to demonise and mock the unvaccinated where for the most part they fit neither description.
milkyaqua · 03/12/2021 10:26

Why can't you compare past pandemics to covid?

BlueskiesAbove · 03/12/2021 10:29

@frozendaisy

Don't care about the unvaccinated they get far to much airtime being a diminishing minority.

They can sit at home blaming Bill Gates for everything that is wrong with their lives if they want.

We shall be at the panto Grin

I think you will find that due to needing numerous boosters which many will refuse the " unvaccinated" group will be much larger than you think going forward as to remain "vaccinated" you have to take ongoing booster jabs. There are many who are double jabbed that won't keep taking an endless succession of jabs every few months going forward. Enjoy watching buttons at the panto
NearlyAlwaysInsane · 03/12/2021 10:29

@WeDidntMeanToGoToSea It isn't normal to place this kind of condition on accessing public spaces, no, but neither is the current situation.

There is no 'normal'. Normal is defined by those in power. Who are now defining a new normal in places like Germany. It's easy for new measures to 'stick' and become a permanent feature of life.

userperuser · 03/12/2021 10:30

milkyaqua

A pp mentioned smallpox with a massive death rate compared to covid, you certainly cannot compare that, the last flu pandemic yes but not something that serious.

BlueskiesAbove · 03/12/2021 10:32

@WeDidntMeanToGoToSea

Applauding EileenGC and Babdoc.

I live in Germany, as a naturalised German (dual nationality but frankly I haven't particularly identified with my British nationality over the last few years). Started reading this thread last night and was quite surprised it took until the second page for the Nazi comparisons to start.

(Apologies if I repeat anyone else with this) Vaccination rates are a bit better than they look here due to them generally being expressed as a percentage of the total population, but there is still a sizeable contingent of what you could loosely call ideologically non-vaccinated people that, fatally, tend to converge in particular areas of the country. For reasons I don't entirely understand, there has been a sudden and very steep surge in cases, especially in these areas, over the last 3 weeks. We started off from a much lower level than the UK. Cases constantly at UK levels I think wouldn't have been acceptable to either German politicians or the German public.

If you take the exclusive focus on vaccination out of the measures that have been put in place, all they are doing is ensuring particular, non-essential spheres of public life not be accessed by people with a higher risk than others of being infected/transmitting it to others. Your risk of doing so is lower if you are fully vaccinated or have had Covid within the last six months, so those people can access these spaces. Not being able to be vaccinated for documented medical reasons counts you as vaccinated.

if you choose to be unvaccinated, you can still do your food shopping, go to the doctor and the chemist, go for a walk, even meet your family - but then that gathering must have no more than two households total. A German newspaper gave an example which I thought was very interesting - if your immediate family (vaccinated) and your parents (vaccinated) are together and couple friends (unvaccinated) turned up, your parents would have to leave. Certainly in that hypothetical example it would be vaccinated people making room for unvaccinated people again.

I resent the insinuations of totalitarianism (and particularly the Nazi crap, of course). Germany has been publicly soul-searching for months about this, until very recently in the hope that it wouldn't come to it. The governments I have experienced in my 2 decades here have been very well aware of the weight of history and and incursions into individual freedoms are not taken lightly. But there is an increasing feeling that those exercising their choice to be unvaccinated (and, let's not forgot, often influencing others to do the same - don't you think that if totalitarianism was behind this, there would have been a crackdown on that?) are beginning to hold everyone else hostage. If y choice you make risks impacting on the wellbeing of others, then the consequence of that will be not stopping you from making the choice, but taking measures to ameliorate that risk to others' wellbeing you are posing. And that's all these measures are.

It's quite funny how your lengthy post implies restrictions in Germany arem't draconian but then state " If you were with friends in a private house and your parents walked in who were unvaccinated breaking the rules you would have to leave". How anyone can say with a straight face that isn't a significant step back to more sinister times in Germany beggars belief quite frankly- that's normal in your eyes is it?
doublemonkey · 03/12/2021 10:33

@userperuser

doublemonkey

Just to clarify, I was pointing out to pp that you cannot compare those past diseases with covid.

Yes, sorry, I realize that. I had a quote misfunction.
BlueskiesAbove · 03/12/2021 10:34

@milkyaqua

Why can't you compare past pandemics to covid?
What pandemic do you wish to compare to covid?
milkyaqua · 03/12/2021 10:38

@userperuser

milkyaqua

A pp mentioned smallpox with a massive death rate compared to covid, you certainly cannot compare that, the last flu pandemic yes but not something that serious.

Well, I think you can compare a pandemic disease which we have successfully eradicated worldwide with vaccination with this current pandemic.
userperuser · 03/12/2021 10:40

milkyaqua

Your comment shows how’s wrong your thinking is.

wireyfirey · 03/12/2021 11:16

"milkyaqua My posts give actual stats rather than just generic phrases used in an attempt to close any covid debate down- the same sort of things get spouted out such as and not limited to
*
" anti vaxxers"
"trumpers"
"covid deniers"
"brexiters"
" daily fail readers" etc etc etc

As soon as anyone says they are concerned about the vaccine mandate they have to add " I am not an anti vaxxer" to shut hysterical people like you up.

We all know that alcoholism isn't contagious but the NHS being overwhelmed is continually mentioned so it helps to get some sense of proportion comparing covid to all you vaccinated guys in the pubs living the high life soon contributing to millions of hospital admissions "doing your bit for the greater good"

The thread may relate to Germany but are you naive enough to think that other countries won't follow their lead regarding these reprehensible legislations which are being introduced? If you as you say " can't get into a public library without being vaccinated " it says more about where you live and your blind acceptance of such disgusting rules than anything I've said.*"

👏👏👏 totally agree

"Nojudgementhere - Sassenach85 - I agree! I've just reading through the comments and it's lovely to see so many people, unvaccinated and vaccinated, joining together in condemning what's going on. It seems there's lots of people out there who are refusing to lose their principles regardless of the propoganda and constant fear that the media are pumping out. I made the mistake of reading a Guardian newspaper comments section yesterday & the constant blatant hatred & fear of anyone who wouldn't take the vaccine really shocked me and made me very sad."

That'll teach you not to read that BS rag! 😅

Agree though, to see many people standing together is heartening. The segregation and vitriolic comments (always from the mandatory jab side) is completely unnecessary. It's also totally counterproductive to laugh at and ridicule people that might question something that you have decided not to question.

MN is so militantly 'pro-choice' in general but not when it comes to these jabs. This whilst they at the same time Boris et all just carry on doing what the fuck they like.

frozendaisy · 03/12/2021 11:25

@BlueskiesAbove excellent more room on flights next year. Better tickets at theatre, hopefully it will extend to swimming pools and we can get a lane to ourselves.

churchofthepoisonmind · 03/12/2021 11:25

it's lovely to see so many people, unvaccinated and vaccinated, joining together in condemning what's going on
This is the crux of it @wireyfirey . This is not about vaxxed versus unvaxxed. Anybody with any semblance of integrity, decency and intelligence can see that the policy measures unfolding in Germany, Austria, Greece and so on are a huge concern. People are also have every right to worry that these measures might a. soon come here and b. be the thin end of the wedge.

GrumpyPanda · 03/12/2021 11:31

[quote togfee]@BlueskiesAbove
there are more vaccinated in covid wards than unvaccinated

What’s your source?[/quote]
Can't speak for the UK but for Germany this is just flat out wrong - current official numbers show a the share of hospitalised double-vaccinated Covid patients as a mere 30 percent - and in addition, these tend to be patients with substantial comorbidities while many unvaxxed ICU patients otherwise have been as healthy as could be. (www.google.com/amp/s/www.swp.de/panorama/intensivstation-geimpfte-corona-patienten-ungeimpfte-inzidenz-schwerer-verlauf-covid-19-intensivbetten-60763587.html%3f_XML=AMP - could give you the actual Robert Koch institute link but that would only take you to a big umbrella document).

Living in Germany and reading this discussion feels rather depressing and as far as the Godwin's law aspect goes, also in extremely bad taste - I say this as somebody whose grandfather was actually arrested by the Gestapo and who was once credibly assured his name must be on the regime's death lists to be implemented after the "final victory".

FFS we currently have the military airlifting ICU patients to parts of the country still less affected by the present wave....! We may yet come to a general lockdown as many virologists are now telling us - they are afraid given the skyrocketing numbers right now partial measures will be to late to stem the tide.

Until then, the government also has to take into account the overwhelming stance of the German judiciary which while giving retroactive green light to last winter's general lockdown in a constitutional court judgment this very week, has also consistently been coming out against using disproportionate means to achieve legitimate goals against the pandemic, and has frequently shot down individual pandemic measures because of it. Considering Covid incidence among the unvaccinated is a multiple of the equivalent numbers for the double- or triple-vaccinated this certainly has to be taken into account. (Also keep in mind people recovered from Covid in the past six months are similarly exempt from the new graduated restrictions).

MarbleQueen · 03/12/2021 11:33

Is no one concerned that there is no mention of the Lancet article?

WeDidntMeanToGoToSea · 03/12/2021 11:33

'It's quite funny how your lengthy post implies restrictions in Germany arem't draconian but then state " If you were with friends in a private house and your parents walked in who were unvaccinated breaking the rules you would have to leave". How anyone can say with a straight face that isn't a significant step back to more sinister times in Germany beggars belief quite frankly- that's normal in your eyes is it?'

BlueSkiesAbove, read that bit of my post again. The (hypothetical) example (in an explainer on a German newspaper website) said that if you (vaccinated) were being visited by your (vaccinated) parents and friends (unvaccinated) arrived, your (vaccinated) parents would have to leave (to give way to the unvaccinated guests).

We all remember the limits on numbers of households and people who could get together from last year/early this year - in the UK as well as Germany and other countries. We didn't have vaccines then, so we had to try and keep people safe that way. Now we do have vaccines, but some people haven't taken them up, so we have to have similar restrictions for them, to keep them (and others) safe.

As far as your reference to 'more sinister times' goes - you have absolutely no idea. None whatsoever, neither of Nazi Germany nor of Germany today. Please stop offending this German, other Germans and victims of the Nazis with this nonsense.

churchofthepoisonmind · 03/12/2021 11:34

Somebody on another thread has just said let the unvaxxed die and the 'normal' get on with things. Just so people all know which side the argument they are on Smile

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