Vaccines for travel fatigue

[Lostinacloud]

Does anybody else feel very down about the world slowly closing down to adults and children who haven’t been vaccinated or who haven’t had the latest booster?

Judging by case numbers everywhere, the fact vaccines don’t really appear to stop spread or last much longer than a few months, coupled with the recent border closures and mandatory pcr and isolation travel changes in response to omnicron, (regardless of vaccination status) the fact someone is vaccinated doesn’t seem to hold much weight in the argument that a vaccinated person has more freedom to travel.

I sincerely hope all this is fairly temporary but where does this situation leave a whole heap of people if not?

Those who had bad reactions to previous vaccines and don’t want another one but aren’t entitled to exemption which seems to be harder to get than hen’s teeth.
Those who have had covid and survived and know they are no threat to hospital space and don’t really like the idea of endless vaccines
Those who have severe needle phobias
Those who choose not to vaccinate their healthy teens or children.
Those who simply choose not to take the offer of vaccination for whatever their personal reason.

All of the above (or perhaps most) could take a test and ensure they are negative before travelling but slowly and surely countries are closing off to non vaccinated travellers and this is now starting to include over 12’s. I’m sure once the full rollout of 5-11 year olds has had time, these entry rules will apply to them too. Where does that leave family holidays, trips to visit relatives, school ski trips or school overseas experiences?

The whole thing doesn’t make scientific sense anymore now that we know what we know about vaccine effectiveness and yet it continues to become more and more likely that only the vaccinated, or in fact recently boosted, will be able to travel.

Will the majority of people ever consider this wrong or will everyone just keep getting vaccinated and vaccinating their whole families no matter what the risk or personal benefit just so they can travel?

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Link here

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-59405471

Loads of links saying the same thing. In my city 15% vaccinated occupying ICU beds. 85% not vaccinated.

Why should people who choose not to have the vaccine get special treatment. Look at how much trouble they’re causing in the health system

Why would any country want to import that into their over stretched systems?

Aaah more fear-mongering from the BBC

Let's look at the actual stats

Gloucestershire Royal is part of the
GLOUCESTERSHIRE HOSPITALS NHS FOUNDATION TRUST which also covers Cheltenham General Hospital

From the stats downloadable from the NHS website

www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/

The following figures are available

People WITH a positive covid test on mechanical Ventilation = 4
People IN critical care WITH a positive covid test 6
People IN critical care WITHOUT a positive covid test 14

Critical care beds available 5

These figures cover Gloucester Royal AND Cheltenham hospital

NB 40% of All cases are picked up in hospital

Just because someone HAS covid in hospital and is in critical care, does NOT mean they went in there for that reason.
They could have had a heart attack or been involved in a car crash

These patients just happened to test positive on a PCR test that happens to have a 99% Specificity

This means for every 1000 patients tested 10 will show a FALSE POSITIVE

so unless 14 more people are now in the hospital

The highest figure is going back to Jan 19th 2021 when there were 19 people who tested positive in critical care

so at the moment, those 2 hospitals have two third fewer patients

Bet this post gets removed, even though the link is above and screenshot, and the BBC one gets to stay

you’ve lost me. Portugal has practically all its population vaccinated.

I guess there would be many more hospitalisations without vaccines.

They might need the money for tourists, but that’s offset by the cost of unvaccinated tourists going to hospital.

I don’t really understand what you’re saying. You put up a post about large numbers in Portugal, and then start talking about how many unvaccinated are in hospital🤷🏼‍♀️ It doesn’t make sense. The link isn’t about that.

But we were all unvaccinated not that long ago, how many of us caught and spread Covid travelling?

And I’m not contesting vaccines offer self protection but the Portugal news clearly demonstrates that highly vaccinated countries still have souring cases and therefore it makes sense to suggest that is not just the unvaccinated spreading Covid.

Until people make this realisation and don’t blindly accept that all further Covid problems will be caused by the unvaccinated then this kind of non scientific division will sadly still be accepted it seems.

But there’s loads more apart from the ‘BBC’

I don’t really understand your post. If someones got Covid, they’ve got Covid,

Furthermore on from those stats above in England

878 are in critical card with a positive covid test
2523 are in critical care without a positive covid test

943 critical care beds available

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

But there’s loads more apart from the ‘BBC’

I don’t really understand your post. If someones got Covid, they’ve got Covid,

Doesn't mean they are dying from it though does it

And your .... Loads more apart from the BBC
Tells you of the lies they spout

@Lostinacloud

But we were all unvaccinated not that long ago, how many of us caught and spread Covid travelling?

I am from India. I seem to recall the huge hue and cry earlier this year about British Indians bringing Delta to the UK over Easter. I wasn't one of them because I waited to be vaxxed before travelling but I could have been.

Would you be honestly be ok with British Indians, S Africans, Chinese and others travelling to the UK without being vaccinated and with just a PCR test?

I can’t open those stats in my phone.

Here’s my local paper. Really right wing rag.

www.thestar.co.uk/health/coronavirus/85-per-cent-of-covid-patients-in-intensive-care-unvaccinated-as-sheffield-hospitals-face-problematic-winter-3471108

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Austria has mandated the vaccine and it looks like Germany may follow.

Why would they want an unvaccinated person visiting?

Has it occurred to you that the very people who have been transmitting the new variant are fully vaccinated travellers?

@TomelettewithGreggsTomelettewithGreggs

Yes, totally happy

Has it occurred to you that the very people who have been transmitting the new variant are fully vaccinated travellers?

🤷🏼‍♀️But they won’t transmit as much as unvaccinated. Are you arguing with yourself?😂

Well, that's at least consistent @Woowoe!

Anyway, we can all link a lot of data. I am convinced by the widespread data- not just BBC-that says vaxxed people transmit less than the unvaxxed, but still can transmit. Therefore we need both vaccination proof and PCR's for the time being. Nearly every country agrees with this reading of the science, except some who have gone even further and closed their borders, like Japan.

@Lostinacloud

So everyone here so far is happy to get vaccinated every 3-6 months and their children too, regardless of the risk of side effects to young children we don’t even know about yet just so they can travel?

And no it really isn’t the unvaccinated taking up all the hospital beds and causing high cases in many countries. There are multiple examples of extremely highly vaccinated countries or regions where cases are at record highs, or were recently - Israel, Cyprus, Gibraltar, England, Ireland to name but a few.

This recent analysis of Northern Ireland hospital admissions demonstrates that hospitalisations are near enough equal between unvaccinated or vaccinated patients and in older groups vaccinated patients make up the vast majority.

Negative tests I could understand, just vaccinated I just can’t.

This shows how some simple data can be completely mis-read. This raw data is meaningless. You need to analyse the percentages of hospitalisations for each group against the percentage of total population to make a comparison.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Has it occurred to you that the very people who have been transmitting the new variant are fully vaccinated travellers?

🤷🏼‍♀️But they won’t transmit as much as unvaccinated. Are you arguing with yourself?😂

There is a Lancet article published this week which is questioning this "doesn't transmit as much"

www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00258-1/fulltext?s=08#%20

But even withstanding this, how can you possible think these vaccine passports have any impact because people can still transmit it even if they are vaccinated. It either works or it doesn't.

I could understand arguing for testing, but not for vaccines.

🥱🥱🥱God you do talk crap. 🥱

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

OK. Thanks for your considered counter-argument

It either works or it doesn't. But if a vaccinated person can get infected, but is likely to infect fewer people, then the spread will be considerably less.

Also, even though people can still get infected, they are much less likely to need intensive hospital treatment.

These things make a huge difference in a pandemic.

I think the "either works or it doesn't" criticism of vaccine passports is misguided. It's like saying seatbelts either work or they don't. Seatbelts help a great deal, but they are not foolproof, which is why we advise drivers to wear seatbelts, drive carefully and not drink and drive. Vaccinations are not foolproof either. There has never been a 100% effective vaccine- or a seatbelt- so we do the best we can with what we have.

@herecomesthsun

It either works or it doesn't. But if a vaccinated person can get infected, but is likely to infect fewer people, then the spread will be considerably less.

Also, even though people can still get infected, they are much less likely to need intensive hospital treatment.

These things make a huge difference in a pandemic.

There are many things that influence transmission

For example, breathing through your mouth. People who breath through their mouth transmit more viral load - the nose has natural cleansers.

I know that sounds bat shit, but it is true.
summary here

Obese people are also more likely to spread the disease too - may be linked to mouth breathing, but it is certainly a thing

High BMI High Age are the super spreaders

The point is there is nuance to these things. Vaccination is a very very blunt tool

I would think it would be easier to require and police vaccination for travellers than require them to breathe through their noses and lose weight.

Not travelling is far better for the environment anyway. Two birds with one stone if a fixed percentage of anti-vaxxers are stuck with limited mobility.

Yes, it is difficult to see how that could be achieved

@TomelettewithGreggs

I would think it would be easier to require and police vaccination for travellers than require them to breathe through their noses and lose weight.

Like I said, blunt tool.

The mouth breathing studies do show why children transmit the virus much less - they usually nose breath.

Another reason why masks for children is an abomination

These sorts of comments are interesting though.....because I am sure you constantly quote "follow The Science" yet when you look at the science outside of what you see on the BBC news, that is just too much.

Yes, if we were following the science we would police fat and older people more because they are much more likely to be superspreaders - as the article says, because "18% of human subjects (35) accounted for 80% of the exhaled bioaerosol of the group"