Vaccines for travel fatigue

[Lostinacloud]

Does anybody else feel very down about the world slowly closing down to adults and children who haven’t been vaccinated or who haven’t had the latest booster?

Judging by case numbers everywhere, the fact vaccines don’t really appear to stop spread or last much longer than a few months, coupled with the recent border closures and mandatory pcr and isolation travel changes in response to omnicron, (regardless of vaccination status) the fact someone is vaccinated doesn’t seem to hold much weight in the argument that a vaccinated person has more freedom to travel.

I sincerely hope all this is fairly temporary but where does this situation leave a whole heap of people if not?

Those who had bad reactions to previous vaccines and don’t want another one but aren’t entitled to exemption which seems to be harder to get than hen’s teeth.
Those who have had covid and survived and know they are no threat to hospital space and don’t really like the idea of endless vaccines
Those who have severe needle phobias
Those who choose not to vaccinate their healthy teens or children.
Those who simply choose not to take the offer of vaccination for whatever their personal reason.

All of the above (or perhaps most) could take a test and ensure they are negative before travelling but slowly and surely countries are closing off to non vaccinated travellers and this is now starting to include over 12’s. I’m sure once the full rollout of 5-11 year olds has had time, these entry rules will apply to them too. Where does that leave family holidays, trips to visit relatives, school ski trips or school overseas experiences?

The whole thing doesn’t make scientific sense anymore now that we know what we know about vaccine effectiveness and yet it continues to become more and more likely that only the vaccinated, or in fact recently boosted, will be able to travel.

Will the majority of people ever consider this wrong or will everyone just keep getting vaccinated and vaccinating their whole families no matter what the risk or personal benefit just so they can travel?

@TomelettewithGreggs

I am not the one arguing that fat people be banned from travelling! I am prepared to be corrected on most European countries allowing the vaxxed to travel without PCRs but in any case that is now changing everywhere surely? The future is both. Because one or the other not effective enough.

I don't think I've argued that fat people should be banned from travelling? I know you want to discredit me but don't do that by untruths.

If you had to place your money on one or the other - between testing or vaccines, it is testing that makes most sense. The problem with it of course is that all the people who only got the vaccine to travel will be mightily pissed off and everyone who has been fiercely attacking unvaccinated people will feel a bit stupid.

A bit of honesty and humility is probably required there too - "the vaccines are for your own health, and they don't stop transmission"

The point is governments dont have to choose and will require both. I dont have a problem with that except I would like cheaper PCRs. I did get the vaccine for my health but also because it makes me 65% less likely to pass it on to my mother.

I would argue that humility is required on the part of anti vaxxers actually.

But nobody is allowing non tested vaccinated people in as far as I know? PCRs required everywhere for everyone.

Is that a serious question?

Yes it is, because all the places I need to travel to require PCRs. Or are rapidly changing in the wake of Omicron. If you haven't even had your first jab though you may feel terribly persecuted.

Being vaccinated makes it less likely to transmit, but that does not mean it makes it unlikely to transmit.

Not to mention all of the exemptions, the main one being under 12s. An unvaccinated school child, especially one that is mask exempt as well are fully allowed to travel freely.

While the immediate concern of course is the pressure on the various healthcare systems, the impact of non-critical cases can't be understated in terms of missed work and productivity.

So from a strict public health standpoint, the various restrictions and the way the are implemented have so many holes as to reduce the benefits to near the level of ionconvenience.

[quote Woowoe]The media are publishing articles by NHS staff claiming that most COVID19 patients in intensive care are UNvaccinated.

This is incorrect. The majority are VACCINATED. This is by virtue of the disproportionately large vaxxed population, but these media claims are FALSE.

Watch the video

twitter.com/Politic56721677/status/1466068130363584512?s=20[/quote]
It should be, that a disproprtionately high number of people in ICU are unvaccinated.

Also, 1 in 6 ICU patients were reported in October to be unvaccinated pregnant women (which is truly tragic for the mums, their babies and those whole families, so very sad).

@TomelettewithGreggs

The point is governments dont have to choose and will require both. I dont have a problem with that except I would like cheaper PCRs. I did get the vaccine for my health but also because it makes me 65% less likely to pass it on to my mother.

Where have you got this 65% less likely to pass it on from?

We are very used to travel, but it has always been a privilege and not a right. Nobody is emperor of the world, each country is making its own decisions as they are all legally entitled to do. While it's interesting to comment on other countries, it's not reasonable to let it start affecting your peace of mind because you can never have influence over those laws. Requirements will undoubtedly start to change when the pandemic is over, until then all you can really be entitled to complain about and honestly all it's worth bothering about is laws in your own country.

France will insist on Covid passports including a booster for adults from January. This won't cover all UK people as many won't get their boosters yet and sets to ruin many a ski holiday. Sovereign countries and all.... I really don't think it's the time to be travelling unless necessary and I speak as someone who hasn't seen family in 2 years.

@hamstersarse There is this study and several others. This study actually says 63%, but says that it is a very conservative estimate. www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/

@TomelettewithGreggs there are also studies which show that unvaccinated but previously recovered people have less than a 1% chance of being reinfected or spreading Covid to anyone else. But as I said earlier, natural immunity has all but disappeared apparently.

www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/309762?fbclid=IwAR0ctxWwTfdpHaQTLkok5xMrVT-GuRIFbxdWKQrteDRHz9VNMkbwkCxpIrI

[quote TomelettewithGreggs]@hamstersarse There is this study and several others. This study actually says 63%, but says that it is a very conservative estimate. www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/[/quote]
It doesn't matter how many times you post this it will be steadfastly ignored by the OP and others on this thread who repeatedly say "doesn't stop transmission....." or "wears off in a few months"

I am personally in favour of vaccination or testing to allow choice. But the more I read continual denial of the effectiveness of vaccines the more I don't really care any more about compulsory vaccines, travel restrictions etc

natural immunity has all but disappeared apparently

The government have just changed their guidance around PCR tests as Delta doesn’t give immunity fromOmicrom

[quote TomelettewithGreggs]@hamstersarse There is this study and several others. This study actually says 63%, but says that it is a very conservative estimate. www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/[/quote]
This isn't what that says - it is not 63% reduction, and that number is for vaxxed to unvaxxed anyway - is your mum not vaccinated?

Effectiveness of full vaccination of the index against transmission to fully vaccinated household contacts was 40% (95% confidence interval (CI) 20-54%), which is in addition to the direct protection of vaccination of contacts against infection. Effectiveness of full vaccination of the index against transmission to unvaccinated household contacts was 63% (95%CI 46-75%).

From the preprint referenced in the article @hamstersarse

Not sure why it's still being debated, thread after thread.

Get vaccinated, don't get vaccinated, but stop with the "but they don't stop infection or tranmission"

It doesn't matter how many times you post this it will be steadfastly ignored by the OP and others on this thread who repeatedly say "doesn't stop transmission....."confused or "wears off in a few months"

I am personally in favour of vaccination or testing to allow choice. But the more I read continual denial of the effectiveness of vaccines the more I don't really care any more about compulsory vaccines, travel restrictions etc

Yes @sleepwouldbenice

Yes, she is, but she isn't the only elderly person I meet. You will have to parse and explain the study to me then. And other studies which say similar things. I am assuming you believe that vaccination makes little difference in transmission and the only reason to be vaxxed is to not end up in hospital. Most of the scientific establishment thinks otherwise.

sorry that last response was to @hamstersarse. There are definitely people with more scientific education than me who can cite all the relevant studies. I am a sheep who listens to general scientific opinion because I can't see why countries would be involved in a vast conspiracy to keep tourists out.

Well with rates per 100,000 especially in younger age groups it really is the unvaccinated taking up the beds.

Just as much as posters like myself can admit to regularly pointing out that vaccinated people can still both catch and spread Covid (fact), I think it is also fair to note that other posters who regularly point out that the vaccines do offer some mitigation to spread will equally never concede that spread can still occur even if at a reduced rate. And this is what posters like myself are always endeavouring to convey - whilst vaccinated people may not be quite as likely to spread Covid as an infected unvaccinated person, the fact that they still could renders all vaccine passports, whether domestic or for travel, totally non scientific and discriminatory for no valid reason.

I think it is also fair to note that other posters who regularly point out that the vaccines do offer some mitigation to spread will equally never concede that spread can still occur even if at a reduced rate.

This statement makes no sense @Lostinacloud

By stating infection and transmission occurs at a reduced rate, this makes it obvious that it still occurs.

@Northsoutheastwest76 - how many of those in the younger age groups are in icu? How many are in for other reasons but happen to have tested positive for Covid. How many are actually ill with covid or only remain admitted for treatment for other ailments.
That table doesn’t tell us and since it is accepted that somewhere around 30-40% of all cases are picked up in hospital settings, I don’t think these figures alone can be relied upon to tell the whole story.

But read with the following sentence it makes sense @ollyollyoxenfree