Why are things ' kicking off ' in Europe ?

[genuinequestion21]

Please excuse my ignorance. But why is Germany for example stressing so much about covid right now ?

I think we have more cases per 100 k than them and have been having high cases for months and we are still open and not ' that much ' talk about lockdown etc. It seems we are kind of just about ' OK '. Well at least we aren't going to plan B yet.

However in Germany there have been few cases and cases are now exploding and there's talk of lock downs etc.

Hospitals also seem to be full again. Whereas in the UK, they don't seem to be on the brink.

Why these differences ? Germany and UK have a very similar proportion of the population vaccinated. Is it because cases are seeming to go up very rapidly, whereas ours have been high but flat for ages ?

Why are their hospitals full again and ours are not ?

Please correct any factual information which is incorrect.

And other countries quite wisely have a problem with running as hot and a high death toll, high long Covid rates etc. Our government decided to go for all that.

[quote doorornottodoor]@KarenTheGammonRemoaner guidance being the key word!

Oh and I followed it all the first and second time around. Wear a mask every day for work and out and about. But will not lock us and my kids away again.

It feels like you’re being goady with your very short responses with little or no context [/quote]
If it's harmful to lock kids away why was it not harmful the first time?

I think our government have been quite clever in a way in countering anti vax movement here.

They said we can go back to ' normal ' if we get vaccinated, so people did that. There's not been much talk of forceful vaccination in England at least and not many venues etc require proof of vaccination.

I think any force used by the government regarding vaccination plays into the hands of the anti vaxers very well. Also, opening up and having no real restrictions also helps this sentiment as people in general feel they have their life back through the vaccine. Anti vaxers argument is always, well why should I get vaccinated if I still need to wear a mask and test and be restricted etc.

I think people in the UK have been happy to get vaccinated in general because of some of these factors. That, and it was always our only chance.

So far, people in places like Germany just haven't had to suffer it the same way we have here. Even last Christmas, families were still together. In smaller circles ( at least where mine live ). They were pretty much never prevented from seeing each other entirely. From what I saw, there wasn't as harsh of a lockdown as we had here ( at least not where my family live ). At any point. Even at the peak of it, we were seeing images of ill Italians being flown to German clinics etc. They never quite seemed to be on their knees. This didn't create quite the same fear and therefore more people declined the vaccine. That and also, homeopathy is huge in Germany and the general anti vax ( any vaccine ) movement is massive there.

@SecretKeeper1

Europe’s witch hunt against AZ is what’s put them on the back foot timing-wise. Because of those delays they now face this wave in winter instead of late summer / autumn.

It’s much more complex than that (as Gemradh points out )

Sorry for the competing/sporting metaphors but IMHO main reason the UK got a (small) head start was the decision to go it alone and order the AZ product ahead of the EU block decision, plus probably even more importantly the UK NHS .

Within the EU ( aka to some extent “Europe) The vaccination programmes - as in logistics, vaccination centres, staff- are a national responsibility, so each nation got saddled with it’s own bespoke way of doing things….the NHS seems to have been well suited to getting a mass vaccination programmes up and running at speed PDQ…other places not so much.

In our case France was actually only about three weeks behind the UK in getting it’s first vaccines (Pfizer) into the arms of essential workers and occupants of care homes but the rate took a while to ramp because some ministers prevaricated over things such as whether they should use non medical facilities such as velodromes as mass vaccination centres, and should vaccinations be given by anybody other than Doctors?

I don’t think it’s anything like as simple as that…sorry for the competing/sporting metaphors but IMHO main reason the UK got a (small) head start was the decision to go it alone and order the AZ product ahead of the EU block, plus the UK NHS .

The vaccination programmes (as in logistics, vaccination centres, staff) are a national responsibility, so you each nation got saddled with it’s own bespoke way of doing things….the NHS seems to have been well suited to getting a mass vaccination programmes up and running at speed PDQ…

For example France was only about three weeks behind the UK in getting it’s first citiin other countries such as France some ministers prevaricated for quite a while over whether it was right or not to use non medical facilities/ mass vaccination centres…the NHS just got on with it.

Meanwhile the NHS just got on with it….

Those factors are the main reason why the French initial vaccination process peaked later then in the UK, I can’t speak for the details in other countries but they will no doubt have had national factors…

Sorry for duplication..

@Eastridingclub

And other countries quite wisely have a problem with running as hot and a high death toll, high long Covid rates etc. Our government decided to go for all that.

Wow haven't heard of long covid in ages to be honest. While our hospitals are not in an ideal situation, they are definitely not in the same position as previous waves with 40k in hospital. We currently have 8k in hospital and the vast majority in ICU are now unvaccinated!

And your point being what, Tuba? Our health service is breaking. Our hospitals are under huge strain with Covid a contributing factor. And yes, wow, long Covid is very much still a thing. We have plenty of unvaccinated people where the present ones came from.

Actually, I don't think we have a COVID issue, but we may be facing a horrendous flu situation this year. A few people I know have already had a very unpleasant version, lasting two weeks. The children who've brought it home from school recover in a few days, but the adults have been very unwell for a fortnight.

Actually, I don't think we have a COVID issue

Others would disagree - unless you mean that there is an "unvaccinated issue" ...

Covid patients in ICU now almost all unvaccinated, says Oxford scientist
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/23/covid-patients-in-icu-now-almost-all-unvaccinated-says-oxford-scientist

ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/icu-is-full-of-the-unvaccinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin

@Havananana, I dodged that one, admittedly. And I agree that most serious ICU cases are non-vaccinated. I've spent time in radio therapy waiting rooms recently; EVERYONE is wearing masks.

LobsterNapkin
What gives the state the right to tell people they can't see their elderly relatives? They govern by consent, at a certain point, there isn't enough consent. We don't owe it to the state to do anything that they happen to think is justified, they are just people we choose to do a job.

Because some people, thankfully a small minority, are too dim to understand the consequences of ignoring laws on public health.

@Flaxmeadow

LobsterNapkin What gives the state the right to tell people they can't see their elderly relatives? They govern by consent, at a certain point, there isn't enough consent. We don't owe it to the state to do anything that they happen to think is justified, they are just people we choose to do a job.

Because some people, thankfully a small minority, are too dim to understand the consequences of ignoring laws on public health.

Have you ever read Antigone? It's a worthwhile read, it's about the idea that it is possible for even legitimate authorities to overstep into people's private lives and what the consequences of that could be.

I think quite a few people have come to the conclusion that they are unwilling to accept restrictions on things like visiting their elderly relatives, that it was a very bad thing and probably should never have been asked in the first place.

Our hospitals have been stretched and on the brink for months. 15,000 have died since freedom day. Many more hospitalised or with lasting illness. Staff are exhausted.

That’s not a win because some catches started catching up and a couple overtook us. (At least they’ve taken measures so the peak will fall)

Especially when our cases are rapidly rising. Again.

Countries not catches!!!

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@PrincessNutNuts

Looking at your graphs, perhaps we should be more like Russia,
Romania and Brazil!

Russia: One of the highest excess deaths in the world... up there with Bulgaria and Peru.
Brazil: A summer time dip after 20 months with a leader far more laissez-faire than Boris and with a far higher Covid death rate than the U.K. over that time
Romania: Low vaccinations leading to a massive surge with mortuaries running out of space, which has belatedly led to a drop in cases as people respond to the catastrophe.

Yes it is interesting isnt it that Brazil (who by all accounts has been incredibly hard) even at its known peaks doesnt come close to our case rate. Which is why it is called confirmed cases.

All those charts do @PrincessNutNuts is basically show how difficult it is to compare countries because there is no like for like. DIfferent testing/reporting ways, different set ups (huge areas of Brazil for example probably were never tested) rendering data comparisions ineffective and pointless.

All each country can do I think is monitor and assess where it is - because that data one would hope can show trends. It can show where growth rates do out of control and measures can be brought in.

Whether you agree with our approach or not at the moment the UK is not at the stage other countries are

@Bunsnbobbins

Our hospitals have been stretched and on the brink for months. 15,000 have died since freedom day. Many more hospitalised or with lasting illness. Staff are exhausted.

That’s not a win because some catches started catching up and a couple overtook us. (At least they’ve taken measures so the peak will fall)

Especially when our cases are rapidly rising. Again.

What measures are you suggesting we adopt here then, as it's clear that the mandatory mask-wearing was insufficient to prevent a surge in Germany and other places?

Short answer: we are living in a time of mass insanity where people have lost all perspective. Few people seem to know how many people die per day of all causes; or the average age of death from all causes; or what good health looks like; or the links between politics and "the science" (as opposed to "science"); or the poor quality of data which is starting to render it meaningless.
It's natural for societies to go through "dark ages" and "enlightenments". This dark age is going to be hard to escape: the thin veneer of liberal democracy is getting thinner by the day as nuanced, reasonable and intellectually rigorous debate is shouted down.
The deeper answer is that we are seeing the effects of the end days of capitalism, where global corporations are so powerful and unvetted that they have the ability to ensure that we are commoditised, but they can only do that once liberal democracy and the Rule of Law is dismantled.
Sadly it's no surprise that the way is being led by Australia - always absolutely grotesque in its racism, and of more recent time very vehement in its climate-change denial - and now Austria and Germany, where for whatever reason, tyrannical government has thrived in the past.

That is so deliciously doom laden @Ecina.

@Bunsnbobbins

Our hospitals have been stretched and on the brink for months. 15,000 have died since freedom day. Many more hospitalised or with lasting illness. Staff are exhausted.

That’s not a win because some catches started catching up and a couple overtook us. (At least they’ve taken measures so the peak will fall)

Especially when our cases are rapidly rising. Again.

How do you come to the conclusion numbers are rapidly rising??? Numbers have been broadly stable for 4.5 months now, ranging from 30000-50000

To be fair @firef1y if cases go up from 30,000 to 50,000 that is a 40% increase ? Nowhere near the exponential growth we are seeing in Germany at the moment, but we still need to remember that only 1 in 6 in the UK has tested positive for covid so plenty of wiggle room for more positive cases.
What concerns me is the number of critically ill/serious cases in Germany and the way those are rising, for all those who have said there have been no issues with healthcare during the pandemic over there, you might unfortunately be about to find out why the UK healthcare system struggled.

UK cases continue to oscillate around a fairly constant baseline. No underlining increase.

Sadly it's no surprise that the way is being led by Australia

What a bizarre statement.