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Austria unvaccinated lockdown

503 replies

MRex · 12/11/2021 18:19

How is this expected to actually work in practice? I have only seen basic UK news articles, interested mostly to understand the practical implications.

Personal views without knowing detail: I simply don't see any way this can be achieved without infringing on personal freedoms of unvaccinated and vaccinated quite significantly. I'm very pro-vax in general and for covid, but I hope the UK doesn't start anything like this, seems like it would just have anyone digging their heels in and cause a lot of social unrest issues.

OP posts:
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bumbleymummy · 15/11/2021 09:34

Another good post @Chessie678

Dishhh · 15/11/2021 09:39

[quote Chessie678]@SpringKit
I don't think conformity amongst governments is a convincing moral argument. By that logic, slavery / persecution of Jews, Christians etc. / racism / subjugation of women was all fine because all or most of the world was doing it at some points in history. It might show that you can get away with a particular behaviour against a certain group because the public will accept it and your neighbours aren't going to challenge you.

I don't think "unclean" is hyperbole here. I'm sure you don't use the word yourself because it is political charged due to the way it has been used in history. But the concept is exactly the same - this group and diseased and dangerous; this other group is safe.

The logic that subjecting the unvaccinated to this sort of detriment is ok because it's for health / scientific / data driven reasons and therefore the rationale is good doesn't hold to me. I think historic persecution of religious groups was wrong because persecution is wrong - not because actually these religious groups had sensible religious ideas which should have been respected. I'm sure people who persecuted (say) pagans in the past thought that their beliefs were stupid and dangerous and that the persecution was therefore justified. By the same reasoning, I think stripping fundamental rights away from a portion of the population based on their beliefs is wrong (with some caveats around how the criminal justice system functions). That said, I don't think the scientific rationale for the measures is particularly strong either.

One group has a somewhat higher likelihood of having one specific illness which is not a significant risk to the majority of the population. Within that group of unvaccinated people, there will be many who pose less of a risk than many vaccinated people (e.g. because they have little contact with the public or have recently had covid). There is very little evidence that restricting a relatively small percentage of the population from a list of specific activities and letting them do other activities will make a difference to covid transmission rates and it is even more of a leap to think that this will save lives in the long term given that most people will catch covid at some point. It's clearly much more about coercing people to get the covid without outright forcing them and scapegoating a particular group to blame for covid than it is about public health.

@containsnuts
Well yes it's true that many people can't access cinemas etc. anyway but I'm not sure that makes it better to make it illegal for another group from accessing these services. You could make the same argument about the apartheid - some people couldn't access the facilities closed to black people anyway so it doesn't matter that black people were also shut out from them? (I'm not comparing this to the apartheid, which was different and much worse for lots of reasons).[/quote]

Many of these people are unvaccinated because of misinformation, not because of deeply held beliefs. I think your premise starts to fall apart somewhat then. It cannot be some kind of persecution if they've simply been reading too much rubbish on Facebook - and I suspect that's the case, sadly.

amicissimma · 15/11/2021 09:42

To respond to the first question in the OP, as it's impossible to tell by looking who is vaccinated and who isn't, it can only work if the unvaccinated (or the vaccinated) are obliged to wear some kind of badge identifying their status, or if the authorities stop people who are out at random and ask to see their documents (papers or electronic).

Some countries have done this sort of thing before. I don't have influence over other countries, but I will do whatever I can to prevent my own government joining in.

bumbleymummy · 15/11/2021 09:42

Technically you could argue that people in the past who were persecuted for their beliefs were also simply ‘misinformed’ (or completely right in the case of Galileo!). It doesn’t mean that they should have been persecuted though.

knittingaddict · 15/11/2021 09:45

@PokemonGoGoGo

I find it bizarre that people are very anti this, but the consensus on the threads here about compulsory vaccination for health care workers is that they agree with that.

To me the two are very similar.

If you go down the path of making vaccination compulsory for some, you are not far off removing liberties of those who don't "comply with the rules".

I think you'll find that it's the same people thinking that compulsory vaccines for health care workers is wrong and that Austria is wrong to do this. It's just that more people who think like that are on this thread.
Sian73 · 15/11/2021 09:46

A feeble attempt at critiquing a brilliant post @Dishhh

Did you read Chessie's post? I don't think you actually did. Did you?

Many of these people are unvaccinated because of misinformation, not because of deeply held beliefs. What is the difference between misinformation and deeply held beliefs? I am anti vax - and I consider it to be a deeply held belief. I've held this belief for a very long time. Yes - maybe I am misinformed (I don't believe I am) but is it any different to religious beliefs that could also be misinformed?

It cannot be some kind of persecution if they've simply been reading too much rubbish on Facebook - and I suspect that's the case, sadly.

Also as Chessie has posted - it's not rubbish: One group has a somewhat higher likelihood of having one specific illness which is not a significant risk to the majority of the population. Within that group of unvaccinated people, there will be many who pose less of a risk than many vaccinated people (e.g. because they have little contact with the public or have recently had covid). There is very little evidence that restricting a relatively small percentage of the population from a list of specific activities and letting them do other activities will make a difference to covid transmission rates and it is even more of a leap to think that this will save lives in the long term given that most people will catch covid at some point. It's clearly much more about coercing people to get the covid without outright forcing them and scapegoating a particular group to blame for covid than it is about public health.

Chessie678 · 15/11/2021 09:48

@Dishhh
That may be true but I would say that there are other much better and more effective ways to tackle misinformation like public health campaigns, advice from GPs etc, setting up very visible walk in vaccine hubs, making sure that information which is provably false is taken down. That may be enough to convince people who have a mild inclination against vaccination because they’ve read something on Facebook. Vaccine take up in the UK amongst the eligible population is very high anyway and extremely high amongst the most vulnerable groups.

knittingaddict · 15/11/2021 09:52

@RichTeaRichTea

Tbh the advice about the vaccine itself for pregnant women (no need to use a rather flawed analogy about smoking) has been very contradictory and confusing, with many women advised not to take it by HCPs.
Yes, at the beginning when more information was required. It's not in question now.

I dont know why people post stuff like this this. It happened with masks too. Why are some people incapable of absorbing new research and adapting to changing circumstances or is it that it suits their agenda?

Sian73 · 15/11/2021 09:55

What do you mean? @knittingaddict

Masks not be very helpful either. There's evidence to say they can be harmful - or increase bacteria and fungal infections in the wearer at the very least.

It's good to question these things. That's what we do don't we? Throughout life individuals assess stuff and make choices.

It's not about agendas.

knittingaddict · 15/11/2021 10:02

@MRex

I'm really disappointed that the anti-vax are trying to disrupt this thread. Research is clear, anyone vaccinated is less likely to catch and less likely to pass on infection. Hyperbole about "scared to death" is tedious nonsense.

What I wanted to discuss was HOW this would be enforced; because it's an entirely new idea to split society in these categories. I happen to think it's a terrible idea, however much sympathy I have with wanting to increase vaccination rates, but that isn't the point because I'm not Austrian so I don't get to decide what works for their country. My interest was in what actual mechanisms would be used to verify who fits in which category. Can people please focus on the topic and set up your own thread for other discussions, thanks.

To be fair they were always going to be on this thread with the same old arguments and hyperbole. The views on all of this are pretty entrenched now.

I think history will judge, but not the way that some anti lockdown, anti vaxxers think it will. I hope that actual facts will matter the most, but only time will tell.

MarshaBradyo · 15/11/2021 10:05

I think it’s a new approach worth discussing

No one has to join in if not interesting

I find it just on the line of an ethical question worth giving time to

MarshaBradyo · 15/11/2021 10:08

That was the re the same old arguments in pp

Userrr · 15/11/2021 10:12

Why is the Daily Fail reporting that people in Austria are banned from leaving their houses if the restrictions are that you can't use leisure facilities but you can still go to work, school, grocery shopping and have friends round. That isn't banned from leaving the house.

knittingaddict · 15/11/2021 10:14

@Sian73

What do you mean? *@knittingaddict*

Masks not be very helpful either. There's evidence to say they can be harmful - or increase bacteria and fungal infections in the wearer at the very least.

It's good to question these things. That's what we do don't we? Throughout life individuals assess stuff and make choices.

It's not about agendas.

I'm quite clearly talking about the fact that anti mask wearers look back at the early advice about masks, when they were not encouraged and think it's some kind of gotcha. It's not. Masks weren't freely available then and covid was a new disease.

Mask wearing does cut transmission if everyone wears them. Not by 100% and probably not by 50%, but the research shows that it does help. It's pointless now because too few people wear them.

Also what pregnant women were advised to do 9 months ago is also irrelevant. Advice changes and that shouldn't confuse so many people. Yet somehow it keeps being trotted out as contradictory advice. It isn't.

Also the idea of the unqualified masses questioning and knowing better than highly qualified specialists is a ludicrous development. I will never support the growth of anti science in the age of the internet. It is an incredibly dangerous trend and history will certainly judge that.

Sian73 · 15/11/2021 10:19

@knittingaddict I've always been anti mainstream medicine. Not science because I see that as an ever evolving thing where so many different opinions and views are held. Science is fascinating. But as I say there is not one solid Science - it's a vast array of opinions and different discoveries.

Medicine on the other hand worries me. There are several members of my family and friends that have been damaged by medicines of different kinds and cock ups at hospital etc. That is why I questioned vaccines a long long time ago and discovered then the power these drug companies have. The huge sway they have over governments.

So I don't trust drug companies. And this whole Pfizer thing - is more questionable than anything I've worried about before.

MrsArchchancellorRidcully · 15/11/2021 10:23

I think Austria is disgusting applying it to children over 12. I'm no anti vaxxer ive had both jabs but by god people should be able to choose what goes in their own body. What's next? Banning abortions? This is stopping children having a normal childhood!!!

SpringKit · 15/11/2021 10:24

@Chessie678 thank you! You express that so well. I just don’t agree!

So things from the past slavery/racism : yes clearly wrong. Yet there are examples of things governments have done in the past that are right, and have progressed society forward. Healthcare being one of those things. I don’t see this necessarily as a ‘government’ or decisions of governments around the world. It’s a worldwide healthcare decision that governments are enforcing. In the UK, I think - comparatively - we are enforcing it in a more lax way, and have a resulting high death rate.
I’m wondering if the idea that vaccinated still spread as much as unvaccinated is true :
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/amp/

SpringKit · 15/11/2021 10:29

@Chessie678
And I asked this before - it’s an extreme example granted, but I think it relates.
If a person has a personal belief that’s smoking in pregnancy is fine, and good for your baby - is it OK for them to work on a maternity unit and express that belief to their patients. Should they be restricted for holding that belief if it likely to damage the health of others?

knittingaddict · 15/11/2021 10:30

So I don't trust drug companies. And this whole Pfizer thing - is more questionable than anything I've worried about before.

What whole Pfizer thing?

Pippi1970 · 15/11/2021 10:31

Encourage ... and if they have researched and decided it's not the right thing to do?

How on earth would they have come to that conclusion?

Dishhh · 15/11/2021 10:44

@Sian73

Many of these people are unvaccinated because of misinformation, not because of deeply held beliefs. What is the difference between misinformation and deeply held beliefs? I am anti vax - and I consider it to be a deeply held belief. I've held this belief for a very long time. Yes - maybe I am misinformed (I don't believe I am) but is it any different to religious beliefs that could also be misinformed?

Thanks Sian - I absolutely did read Chessie's post. I just didn't agree with it. Is that all right? Now, if you've been an anti-vaxxer for years, I'd perhaps consider that a deeply-held belief (albeit a misguided one). Many of the more recent unvaccinated people have been swayed by misinformation campaigns. I'd wouldn't consider their beliefs to be deeply held at all.

RichTeaRichTea · 15/11/2021 10:50

knittingaddict I am pro vaccine for pregnant women and always was, you need to avoid making assumptions about intentions. I’m not “trotting out” anything as any sort of persuasive attempt, I was responding to the weird analogy about whether people should be giving bad advice to pregnant women, and that somehow relating to restricting the movement of unvaccinated people. Pregnant women have been given poor and confusing advice and groups like Pregnant Then Screwed are still campaigning about better communication and information.

MaxNormal · 15/11/2021 11:08

What whole Pfizer thing?

Probably this:

www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

Data integrity issues with one of the trials.

PAFMO · 15/11/2021 11:18

Worth reading the multitude of further reports and fact checks about "Pfizergate"

www.transparimed.org/single-post/pfizergate

Sian73 · 15/11/2021 11:21

Yes that's it @MaxNormal . Thank you.